Open Thread

Tell the world what is on your mind.

Democratic Nomination, At a Glance
State polls are post-debate, April 27-May 21st. Last update: May 21, 6:15 pm eastern
StateEst. Date# PollsClintonObamaEdwardsRichardson
Net Avail CashMar 31Q1$23.4M$17.7M$9.6M$5.0M
IowaJan 07424.0%21.5%27.0%7.0%
New HampshireJan 15335.0%21.3%21.0%6.5%
NevadaJan 19137.0%12.0%13.0%6.0%
South CarolinaJan 22231.5%27.5%17.0%--
FloridaJan 29341.3%18.7%15.3%--
MichiganJan 29138.0%25.0%14.0%--
National--HighFeb 05638.3%26.0%15.5%--
National--LowFeb 05834.8%25.0%14.3%--

Notes on this table can be found here. Also, I recently heard a report that indicated Michigan Democrats might go earlier than January 29th, which would really shake things up.

Tags: Open Threads (all tags)



Re: Open Thread

What is with Hillary's super-lead in Nevada? Who are these Nevada voters? What are they all about? How did Nevada get to be so early?

Oh, and what is I my mind? I hate Florida.

Also, I'm very excited to go to my second Drinking Liberally meeting tonight! Gives me a chance to argue with the one Hillary supporter again :)

by LandStander 2007-05-21 02:50PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Clinton has been far ahead in Nevada for awhile now.

by robliberal 2007-05-21 02:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Nobody knows who the Nevada voters are, except that they do not have the experience of IA and NH voters of going this early, so they are likely to be relatively disengaged.

On the crosstabs from the national polls, Hillary does better with Hispanics against Obama than she does with African Americans. Edwards opportunity for big moves in the state comes when union endorsements come out in the fall.

Nevada is a state that is going to get a lot more actively engaged in the campaign after Labor Day.

Far more interesting is Obama making ground on Hillary in South Carolina.

by BruceMcF 2007-05-21 03:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Far more interesting than that is the position of Edwards in SC which is where he was born and lived at one time.

by robliberal 2007-05-21 03:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread
Agreed - this strikes me as odd. I imagine it has a lot to do with the (rather large) black primary demo that splits Hillary/Obama.
I can't recall, has Edwards even spent much time there? How has he been trending?
by LandStander 2007-05-21 03:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

He has spent time there ... and while he does have an inside track from having been born there, he has spent his adult life in North Carolina, so its not as strong as if he had made his political career in South Carolina ... for example, consider Hillary's position in the state of her birth, after she made her career first in Arkansas and then in New York.

The big action over the summer in the SC polls will be Obama overtaking Hillary, but Edwards is going to continue making some headway in SC over the next two or three months. All three will have a ground game in the state, so its going to be a race that evolves over the rest of the year.

by BruceMcF 2007-05-21 06:12PM | 0 recs
Edwards won SC by 15 points last time after...

...finishing second in Iowa and fourth in New Hampshire.

Imagine how much he'll win it by after finishing first in both of those states!

by MeanBoneII 2007-05-21 04:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

..and her lead in NH is apparently 14%?  That is larger than her actual national lead.

So, the old meme that "early states" are not good for her because people are "focusing" on them already is false.  The evidence says differently:

The average margin over Obama in these 6 earliest states is 13.46, which is higher than the national average.  

BTW, you actually admit that you know a Clinton supporter?   You are a rare breed, indeed.  Most here claim that Clinton supporters don't exist, that they are a myth.  If you know a one, that is an amazing find, like the proverbial needle in the haystack.   :-)

by georgep 2007-05-21 03:35PM | 0 recs
I'll let you know when I find one

in my precinct. Last week I did talk to a friend who's a Clinton leaner in a different Des Moines suburb, but unprompted by me, she did say that Hillary's got a lot of baggage, and she's not sure she can win.

In my precinct there are the people who like Hillary but think she can't win (and this does include some elderly people I've talked to), and the people who don't like Hillary.

But I'm sure she's got some supporters in my precinct. I just haven't come across them yet.

by desmoinesdem 2007-05-21 03:41PM | 0 recs
Re: I'll let you know when I find one

Hey, all she has to do is get those who like her (but give their vote to someone they like less because of concerns that she can't get elected) to believe that indeed she can hold her own against the GOP machine, and her advantage goes up even more.   Thanks for confirming how strong her potential position actually is beyond what she already routinely gets.   :-)

by georgep 2007-05-21 04:14PM | 0 recs
Georgep, care to make a bet?

No money involved, just bragging rights. I'll take "Hillary finishes third or fourth in Iowa," and you take "Hillary finishes first or second in Iowa."

Robliberal, I'll make this bet with you as well...

by desmoinesdem 2007-05-21 07:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread
Ha - yes, they are like Unicorns.
Actually, the SF Drinking Liberally is almost all Obama, from what I can tell so far.
I'll have to start buying shots until we're all backing Gravel.
by LandStander 2007-05-21 03:45PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

If you mix shots and beer, you'll be on Lieberman in no time, then Hagel, then Bush/Cheney.    That would bring calls for the prohibition back in a hurry.   :-)

by georgep 2007-05-21 04:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread


by BDM 2007-05-21 04:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

You know, if you can't post WITHOUT YELLING, then don't post at all.  The shtick is getting extremely old.  

Chris Bowers "state of the race" numbers show a 14 point margin in this very diary.   Why don't you YELL at him?  

by georgep 2007-05-21 04:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

I look at only the May numbers. Two polls Zogby and Survey USA one has a two pt lead and the other has a 16 pt lead, One has un-decided;s at 12-13% and the other has un-decided's at 4pts.

I donot look at averages  when their is not enough data.

Even if you averaged the May numbers it is a single digit lead.

by BDM 2007-05-21 05:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

You don't control this site and you will not keep me from posting.

by BDM 2007-05-21 05:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

I am asking you not to yell.  Writing in all CAPS is the equivalent of yelling into someone's face.   Is there a good reason you don't honor that request to be respectful to fellow posters?  

by georgep 2007-05-21 06:00PM | 0 recs
Its not a two horse race in NH

NH CLI: 35.0%, OBA: 21.3%, EDW: 21.0%

National-High CLI: 38.3%, OBA: 26.0%, EDW: 15.5%
National--Low CLI: 34.8%, OBA: 25.0%, EDW: 14.3%

Her "bigger lead in NH" is entirely due to the fact that Obama and Edwards are tied for second in NH, and nothing to do with any stronger position for Clinton.

Of course, that's why the national press want it to be a two horse race, because its much easier to convert poll numbers into stories in a two horse race.

by BruceMcF 2007-05-21 06:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Go Hillary!  Ignore the haters!

by sterkt 2007-05-21 02:51PM | 0 recs
No man, we don't hate Hillary.

We don't like her counterproductive indefinite occupation of Iraq policy, her enabling the shipping of American jobs overseas, or her selling out on any chance to win universal health care, but personally, she's a lovely person.

Heck, I saw a YouTube from Big Dawg that told me so, and if he still thinks so after all the broken plates, it must be true.

by BruceMcF 2007-05-21 03:34PM | 0 recs
Re: No man, we don't hate Hillary.

Speak for yourself.  Not all here are part of your "We."  

BTW, where has she sold out on any chance to win universal healthcare?   She championed it when many here were still in diapers.  And, the slam that her policy means an indefinite occupation of Iraq seems particularly "low-info."   Is that post a lame attempt at snark or something?  

by georgep 2007-05-21 03:58PM | 0 recs
Re: No man, we don't hate Hillary.

She is the only person since New Deal days to actually get UHC implemented for at least part of the population. Tens of millions of children have received healthcare under the federal CHIPS program. That has been a landmark program and a tremendous success in showing how UHC can work.

by robliberal 2007-05-21 04:12PM | 0 recs
Re: No man, we don't hate Hillary.

When did she sign this into law?

by BDM 2007-05-21 04:56PM | 0 recs
Re: No man, we don't hate Hillary.

The State Children's Health Program (SCHIP) was passed as part of Title XXI of the Social Security Act in 1997 during the second term of the Clinton administration. It provides UHC for children from birth to age 19 who otherwise would have no access to healthcare. It has been one of the most effective healthcare programs in the United States. Hillary Clinton led the initiative that brought about the bipartisan bill that was enacted which has provided healthcare to tens of millions of children since 1997.

by robliberal 2007-05-21 06:56PM | 0 recs
Re: No man, we don't hate Hillary.

How did she lead that effort?

by BDM 2007-05-21 09:07PM | 0 recs
Re: No man, we don't hate Hillary.

She led a bipartisan effort to get SCHIPS passed.

by robliberal 2007-05-22 06:39AM | 0 recs
Re: No man, we don't hate Hillary.

I wasn't in diapers and I remember what a boon doggle it was when they secretly put it together and wouldn't let any body see what they were doing.

Currently she talks about passing a universal health plan by the end of her second term. Most presidents donot accomplish much in their second term and become lame ducks quite early in the second term,

If that is her position, then their will be no universal health care in her administration.

by BDM 2007-05-21 04:36PM | 0 recs
Re: No man, we don't hate Hillary.

 The demonization of "everything Clinton" continues.  She took lumps for her universal health care efforts and is still regarded as a commie-pinko socialist by many in the right wing for it.  You know, the same crap people like you now use as a tool against her ("she is disliked by Republicans.  We should go with someone who does not have baggage with them.")   Amazing how that stuff works.      

by georgep 2007-05-21 04:45PM | 0 recs
Re: No man, we don't hate Hillary.

Same of same oh. Criticize her health care attempt and her saying it will be accomplished in a second term(highly un-likely) and your labeled a hillary hater,

My republican friends did the same thing when I criticixzed Bush's Iraq invasion and strategy.

Their seems to be a resemblence here.

by BDM 2007-05-21 04:55PM | 0 recs
Re: No man, we don't hate Hillary.

Ah, the "Rovian" shtick again.  

You not only yell in everyone's face, you also accuse them of being Karl Rove personified.   Nice.  

by georgep 2007-05-21 06:14PM | 0 recs
Re: No man, we don't hate Hillary.

You seem to not be able to handle legtimate criticisim of your candidate's positions and statements with out calling people hater's of Clinton

by BDM 2007-05-21 09:05PM | 0 recs
Re: No man, we don't hate Hillary.

You seem to have a comprehension problem.   I call people like you "anti-Hillary," not "Hillary haters."  That is a huge distinction you are apparently incapable of grasping.   Yet, you attack posters with actual smears, insults and constant yelling.  "Rovian"?  Get a grip on yourself.  

by georgep 2007-05-22 05:03AM | 0 recs
Re: No man, we don't hate Hillary.

Your insulting language gets you nowhere. Lighten up and enjoy the debate. I don't think you have converted anybody to your candidate with such defensiveness.

by BDM 2007-05-22 07:06AM | 0 recs
Re: No man, we don't hate Hillary.

BDM, it is you who insults with abandon.  Suspend with the incredible garbage of calling fellow posters "Rovian" or "Republican" and we'll get along.  And, for crying out loud, quit yelling at others by writing entire posts in all CAPS.   You make your chosen candidate look bad, do him a major disservice, and I am sure that is not really your intent.  

by georgep 2007-05-22 08:13AM | 0 recs
Re: No man, we don't hate Hillary.

You don't know who my candidate is so I am not sure who I am making look bad.

My cap locks that come on are not intentional, many times I am in a hurry and don't have time to erase and go back to re-do my post. I will be careful in the future.

I have been stung by many calling my criticisim's of both Bush and Clinton as hating these people and it is an attempt to stifle dissent. I will call anybody out who I deem as using this tactic.

by BDM 2007-05-22 08:25AM | 0 recs
I want to see her plan.

I want to see her plan, and I hear vague promises of something by the second term.

If she has "expertise" on the issue but isn't able to come up with something better than HillaryCare after all this time, two years into her Presidential run, why should I expect anything better this time around? The first time around it was when the most skilled politician in the family was President, and he couldn't get her plan pushed through.

She has to show me something substantial enough to offset her strong pro-bogus-free-trade-agreement stance, and I have yet to see anything from her that would be enough to justify supporting her even if she was neutral on trade.

by BruceMcF 2007-05-21 08:19PM | 0 recs
Re: I want to see her plan.

So, you believe that Clinton and Obama won't have specific programs, specific plans on healthcare, environment, taxes, etc. by fall?   They already have experts in specific fields working for them, and are prone to come up with specific plans.  They are just not out yet.  

by georgep 2007-05-22 05:09AM | 0 recs
Re: I want to see her plan.

Obama has been called out on this and Hillary needs to be called out also for no specifics.

By the way she is calling for a universal ,health plan by the end of her second term. If that is the case their will be no universal health plan in a Clinton Administration. Second terms historically are not good to get major legislative changes through the congress.

by BDM 2007-05-22 07:10AM | 0 recs
I'll believe that Hillary will have a ...

... substantial change agenda when I see it. She has been planning her run for the White House since at least the start of 2005, and given her role in Health Care in 1992, I would expect that she would at least have a Health Care plan out.

Obviously for the Energy Plan she has to consult with the existing entrenched interests to determine how far she can go, so that will take longer for her to roll a plan out.

by BruceMcF 2007-05-22 07:15AM | 0 recs
Re: I'll believe that Hillary will have a ...

Ok, we'll see.  I think you are wrong, but only time will tell.  There will be a bunch of programs and policies unveiled, it is just WAY too early to do so now.  It makes more sense after the summer, but until then, feel free to disagree.

by georgep 2007-05-22 08:10AM | 0 recs
Oh, I believe that there will be a wave of ...

... policies announced around labor day, I just do not believe that the Health Care policy will offer the transformational change that we need.

by BruceMcF 2007-05-22 08:42AM | 0 recs
Re: Oh, I believe that there will be a wave of ...

Again, we disagree, but that is cool.

The proposals that will be unveiled will add a ton of liberal bulk to recent initiatives regarding Katrina relief, universal pre-K programs, etc.  It will make Republicans hate her more (Limbaugh:  "pure Socialism") but will be very popular with Democrats.   As for healthcare:

She is CLEARLY in favor of comprehensive universal health care, and the proposal/program will show it. tent/article/2007/03/26/AR2007032600373. html

"However, while Clinton said the issue continues to be a high priority for her, she has not offered up a specific plan. One questioner at the town hall meeting held up a copy of a DVD containing a detailed description of Democratic rival John Edwards' plan for universal health care, asking Clinton if she will also offer specifics.

The reason she hasn't "set out a plan and said here's exactly what I will do," Clinton said, is that she wants to hear from voters what kind of plan they would favor.

"I want the ideas that people have," said Clinton. She said any health care plan must deal with the reality that there's a unique climate in the country.

"We are bigger and more diverse and people like their choice," said Clinton.

Edwards, a former North Carolina senator and 2004 Democratic runningmate, has said it's inevitable that taxes would have to go up to finance an expensive health care plan. Clinton disagreed.

"We've got to get the costs under control," said Clinton. "Why would we put more money into a dysfunctional system?"

There WILL be a specific plan, make no doubt about it.  And "hearing from voters" on what they want to see implemented before offering up a comprehensive plan is smart.  

by georgep 2007-05-22 10:17AM | 0 recs
Re: No man, we don't hate Hillary.

She has said that she will work toward universal health care by the end of her second term, when as we all know the Senate cohort of 2006 will be defending a massive Democratic partisan advantage in 2012, and the odds are strong that the Senate will be tougher going after 2012 than it will be in the period 2008-2012.

And, yes, I remember Hillarycare, and I certainly do not give her high marks for failing in that fight. However, more critically I saw the way that the Clinton administration shifted course after the Republican majority of 1994. I believe she is going to shy away from going after the Republicans ... once bitten, twice shy.

And as for the remark:

Speak for yourself.  Not all here are part of your "We."

If you read more closely, you would see that the comment was in response to:

Go Hillary!  Ignore the haters!

... and that the "We" would have been those that might be referred to as 'haters' by a Hillary partisan ... those who would in less emotive language be described as people for whom Hillary is the last choice among the candidates actually running for the Democratic nomination for President.

by BruceMcF 2007-05-21 06:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

I'll tell you what - I watched her "pick our song" video on MySpace the other day. I had been purposely ignoring it for a while but thought, why the heck not check it out?

I liked it - a lot. Hillary is more charismatic than I give her credit for. Well, at least she can be at times. And as much as I dislike several aspects of her and her camping, I do really cherish the idea of a woman president. It would be kind of nice having her be our face to the world instead of, well, the cowboy monkey commander guy.

by LandStander 2007-05-21 03:36PM | 0 recs
all pollsters are pushing undecideds too hard

This afternoon I ran into a friend who is undecided between Edwards and Obama. Our kids go to the same school, so I see her regularly. Our joke is that every two days she changes her mind about which way she is leaning. She is the classic undecided voter.

Turns out she was in the sample for the Des Moines Register poll published yesterday. She said the woman kept pushing her to choose a candidate, and she kept saying she couldn't decide. Finally she did say Edwards, after being pushed several times by the interviewer. But tomorrow she could decide to lean Obama again.

I really don't understand the logic of pushing undecideds so hard this early in the process. Wouldn't it be more useful for us all to know how many undecideds there really are in the electorate?

by desmoinesdem 2007-05-21 03:43PM | 0 recs
Re: all pollsters are pushing undecideds too hard

Struggling between Obama and Edwards? That's my kind of undecided. It's these people that were legitimately torn between Bush and Kerry that make my head want to explode.

And yeah, let these poor people be undecided! Just because some of us enjoy an epic primary season, we must remember that most people really don't give a damn right now.

by LandStander 2007-05-21 03:50PM | 0 recs
All live interviewers ... that's why ...

... robocall polls and well designed internet polls should be included in the averages that we use to get an idea of what is really going on.

by BruceMcF 2007-05-22 08:43AM | 0 recs
How do I sell the Democrats?

 I am in my local Democratic Central Committee. I am tasked to grow the Democratic Party locally. There are many working-class families in my area, many of whom are politically unaffiliated.

What arguments can I use to try to recruit them to support the Democratic Party, electorally and even financially?

The Democrats stand up for working people? Not anymore, after that trade "deal".

The Democrats are doing something about the Iraq debacle? Well, if "curling into a ball at the sight of a president polling 30%" counts, then yes.

The Democrats are going to fix health care? Have you LOOKED at Hillary's campaign contributors?

The Democrats are going to end the culture of corruption? Nice feint.

Help me here... I'm looking for SOMETHING, ANYTHING, that might make voting Democratic appealing to a regular working-class family...

by Master Jack 2007-05-21 04:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

One of the most interesting things to me is the trend.

by jallen 2007-05-21 05:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Did you convert to the dark side recently?

by Vox Populi 2007-05-21 06:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Hillary is starting to slide, Barack is slowing but still going up, and Edwards is continuing to move up.  Looks good to me.

by jallen 2007-05-21 06:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Anything that makes you hurt less Jallen - its ok

by sepulvedaj3 2007-05-21 06:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

lol just checking...

by Vox Populi 2007-05-21 07:07PM | 0 recs
Or alternatively;

Hillary stable around 35% for over 6 months now. Obama flattening out at 23%/24%, And Edwards running behind an undeclared candidate.

and there are a couple of other more in between alternatives as well. But at the moment the trendlines don't worry me.

I do wonder why Gore's numbers took a dive in the last quarter of 2006 though.

by Ernst 2007-05-22 03:01AM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

I get that people don't thing HRC is "progessive" enough but she has what it takes and is pro-gay, pro-choice, etc.  She has my vote!

by sterkt 2007-05-21 06:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

To me it is the war. Her policies regarding a residual force will be a continuation of american forces in combat and american casualties in Iraq.

I cannot vote for her.

by BDM 2007-05-21 09:00PM | 0 recs

Every Democratic nominee, saving Kucinich, Gravel, and Richardson, support a residual force.

by ChicagoDude 2007-05-22 07:25AM | 0 recs

The question is what size and what is their mission. Do they include combat units or are they support troops? Are they to protect the embassy and humanitarian efforts or are they to engage in combat operations against Alqueda?

by BDM 2007-05-22 08:08AM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Trade is my issue.  Hillary is too pro-free trade for me.

Today the Senate votes on the Central American-Dominican Republic Free Trade Agreement. During my tenure as Senator, I have voted for every trade agreement that has come before the Senate and I believe that properly negotiated trade agreements can increase living standards and foster openness and economic development for all parties. When DR-CAFTA negotiations began, I was eager to support an agreement. It was my sincere hope that President Bush would send an agreement to Congress that would help address the DR-CAFTA nations' development challenges and spread the gains from trade more broadly. Unfortunately, the Bush Administration has not submitted such an agreement, instead missing a tremendous opportunity to conclude an agreement that strengthens the bonds between the United States and the DR-CAFTA nations. While this agreement provides some benefit for New York, I regretfully conclude the harm outweighs the good. I must therefore vote to oppose.

One's not good enough for me, Hillary, particularly one vote made when everyone is watching.

by jallen 2007-05-21 09:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

I'm pro-free trade in general. I live in the EU and can see what an enourmous amount of good that body has done, for both the rich and the poor.

The EU is a good example of how free trade can be progressive as well.

by Ernst 2007-05-22 03:05AM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Are you talking about free trade intra-EU, or between the EU and other parts of the world?

One thing to note is that EU countries spend A LOT more money per capita on social services, amounts that "free-traders" in the US are highly unlikely to push for.

by clarkent 2007-05-22 08:02AM | 0 recs
That's no basis to be pro-free trade ...

... in the "FTA" agreement sense.

Where are the protective tarrifs around the "FTA" area? Where is the industrial policy to develop new industries for the "FTA" area? Where are the substantial flows of infrastructure funding (not loans) from the higher income to the lower income members? Where is the protection of the rural economy from being wiped out by opening up trade inside the "FTA"?

The EU stands as rather a harsh critique of why the focus on freeing corporations to do whatever they want in the so-called "FTA"s is not sound economic policy.

by BruceMcF 2007-05-22 08:54AM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

Free trade between France, Germany and Poland is a hell of a lot different than free trade between the US and Oman or Colombia.

by jallen 2007-05-22 09:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

To me it is the war. Her policies regarding a residual force will be a continuation of american forces in combat and american casualties in Iraq.

I cannot vote for her.

by BDM on Tue May 22, 2007 at 01:00:

Don't be naive. You are essentially for spending half a trillion bucks and then just leaving the 2nd biggest oil reserve in the world unprotected? I hope no Democratic candidate listens to that advice.

by ND1979 2007-05-22 06:14AM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

I donot think it is good policy to have an occupying American Military in an Arab country in the middle east carrying out military combat operations.

If Democrats think this is acceptable, then a Nader campaign will  pick up 5-65 of the vote.

Have you been in the military and fought in a third world country?

What are your foreign policy credentials?

by BDM 2007-05-22 07:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

I was against this war from the beginning and thought it was a huge mistake going into Iraq. I guess having fought in the Vietnam war has made me a little suspect of wars of choice.

by BDM 2007-05-22 07:02AM | 0 recs
Just look at her speech on CAFTA ...

... to see how much of a "conversion" that was:

During my tenure as Senator, I have voted for every trade agreement that has come before the Senate and I believe that properly negotiated trade agreements can increase living standards and foster openness and economic development for all parties. When DR-CAFTA negotiations began, I was eager to support an agreement. It was my sincere hope that President Bush would send an agreement to Congress that would help address the DR-CAFTA nations' development challenges and spread the gains from trade more broadly.

Sure sounds like we would be due a wave of FTA's with a much larger dose of toothless side agreements.

by BruceMcF 2007-05-22 08:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Open Thread

When I tried to convince a non-political friend to vote in 2000, she said "the end result is always the same regardless of who wins so I still feel like I'm just a visiting foreigner, because none of them really pays any attention to me."

The way the mod Dems have turned the party into shameless whores makes me inclined to finally see it her way.

But we'll definately go out with a smile:  

by hazmaq 2007-05-22 09:08AM | 0 recs


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