Myths About Moveon

In the heat of the fight around the supplemental, there were a lot of accusations thrown around that Moveon lied to its members, that it somehow sold out, and/or that it is now a Beltway insider organization.  There is also the strategic question of whether the supplemental was a good step or a bad one.  As I supported Moveon's actions in this campaign, I'm going to address the argument, promoted by among others John Stauber, that the organization somehow acted in bad faith.

It's helpful to go back and examine how Moveon has historically interacted with its members, and why these members receive and respond to Moveon emails and requests for action.  Last year, Blogpac did some research on blog influence and Moveon membership.  The two sections of the poll are here and here.

I'm putting up the following chart, because it's important to realize that the argument that Moveon 'sold out' starts from the premise that members of Moveon had a frosty relationship with the Democratic Party to begin with.  Look at the chart below and you'll see that this is just not the case.  Moveon members by and large love Democratic Party leaders, even conservative ones like Bill Clinton.  They are primarily loyal partisan Democrats.

Let's go back to the history - Moveon was born out of an overt rejection of protest politics.  You may or may not think that Moveon is in bed with Pelosi, but the organization started out to defend Bill Clinton, a relatively conservative President.  Moveon has always worked through the political process, beginning with its work on gun control in 1999 and its targeting of pro-impeachment candidates in 2000, and continuing through its work on Iraq from 2002 onward, its internet primaries in 2004, its involvement in the DNC Chair race in 2005, and its policy oriented work around net neutrality and media consolidation, and its fights with Fox News and the Sunday shows.  The fundamental premise of the organization is based on empowering citizens to participate in the political process; it is institutionalist by nature, and has never misled its members on that point.

Moveon was not the only website out there protesting the Clinton impeachment.  There were many websites protesting at the time, including web rings (ah, the late 1990s).  Only Moveon, though, turned into a networked organization with 3.2 million members over the next nine years that engaged in electoral, political, and policy advocacy.  Only Moveon turned its list into a powerhouse of politics, and it did so through a dedication to practical results around progressive populist principles.  While other groups blast out emails and degrade their lists, Moveon listens aggressively, tests intensely, and thinks strategically every step of the way about what their members and the web can accomplish.  While Moveon struggles with scale, anyone who has managed an email list knows that if you don't think about your emails as going to people with real concerns, if you talk down to them, and if you don't show real results, your power drops.  Unlike direct mail or high-dollar-broadcast politics, internet politics requires a tangible and immediate results-oriented model or it fails.

John Stauber, who is an ardent critic of Moveon, comes from a different generation of liberal activism.  He started as an activist against the war in Vietnam in high school, and moved into environmentalism in the 1970s (working on the first Earth Day).  He works through policy-oriented groups on food safety and media activism, authoring "Toxic Sludge Is Good For You! Lies, Damn Lies and the Public Relations Industry'' (1995), "Mad Cow U.S.A. (1997)", "Trust Us, We're Experts! How Industry Manipulates Science and Gambles With Your Future (2001)", "Weapons of Mass Deception: The Uses of Propaganda in Bush's War on Iraq (2003)", "Banana Republicans: How the Right Wing Is Turning America Into a One-Party State (2004)", and "The Best War Ever: Lies, Damned Lies and the Mess in Iraq (2006)".  His roots are not institutionalist, they come from a generic skepticism towards any aggregated center of power, and his tools are PR and outside networks that have traditionally been distrustful of the Democratic Party leadership.  This makes sense.  If you watch, as Stauber did, the collapse of the Democratic Party from the 1960s onward, the corruption of a media system, and the failure of every liberal institution (including unions), you tend to base your career choices and philosophical outlook on existing outside of the institutional fabric of the Democratic Party coalition.

Stauber isn't used to a non-Southern Democratic Party.  It's nothing he's ever known, and it's frankly nothing that any of us have ever known.  None of us know how to wield power in this new political world, where the public is liberal, the military industrial state is cannibalizing itself, and the political system is (slowly) reorienting itself around this shocking new paradigm.  Stauber is also not used to the idea that activist liberals actually like the Democratic Party.  He believes that Moveon members would not support Democratic leaders if presented with a different set of choices, without acknowledging that Moveon members have traditionally supported Democratic leaders when the questions are tactical in nature.

There's a larger generational problem here.  Every successful political movement has both an 'inside' negotiating strategy and an 'outside' set of organizers putting pressure on the insiders.  Every successful political movement has the capacity to make mistakes, even big mistakes, and continue moving forward.  And every successful political movement builds a new establishment that can wield power and make decisions, ultimately electing people to office that are sympathetic to new ways of wielding power.  Moveon is working as a key component in building a new establishment that makes decisions, makes mistakes, and learns from them.

I don't know if the supplemental is a major step forward or not.  I know it won't end the war, since this was has been coming for sixty years and is part and parcel of a militaristic political structure that we must and are working to disassemble within both parties.  But it is a major step forward in terms of our movement, as we affirmatively passed a significant piece of legislation through a House which, while full of some new blood, saw its Democratic membership grow by only 20% in 2006.  Moveon was true to its members in helping this happen.

As for the non-bad faith arguments, there is handwringing about whether the Democrats will 'own the war' in 2008 because they will ultimately end up voting for military funding.  I don't think so.  Just look at the Pew poll to see whether Democrats own the war - according to the Pew data dumb, the parties were tied in approval ratings at 42% in 2002, and now Democrats and Democrat-leaners are 50% of the electorate as opposed to 35% of the electorate for what is increasingly seen as a fringe insane group of conservatives.  In other words, the public knows that this legislation will run up against a temper tantrum from Bush, and doesn't see it as a particularly big game-changer one way or the other.  As a movement it is a big deal, but that's an internal perspective.  Democrats will not own the war in a political sense, because Democrats by and large oppose it and Republicans do not.  People aren't stupid.  They know this, and weird legislative maneuvering about budgets and an asshole President don't change this basic fact.  If we elect Hillary Clinton as our nominee, that will change, but for now, Bush and his GOP fanboys love this war and Democrats are trying to stop the madness.

Now, in a larger and more important sense, we all own the war.  It's our war.  American attacked Iraq.  Voting against funding or this bill or for impeachment or anything else does not exempt you from responsibility for America's actions in the world.  That's what it means to live in a liberal democracy; citizens get a say in things but also have to take responsibility for the actions of the state even when we don't agree with what the state is doing.  That means that Moveon, or anyone else, isn't 'selling out' when we participate in the political process.  There is a set of political institutions, and you either participate in them or you don't, but you are responsible for the war as an American regardless.

Moveon members know this.  It's why they joined Moveon, not because they were looking for a place to protest outside the system but because they wanted to work through the political system to protect Bill Clinton from radical revolutionaries, show support for not overreacting to 9/11, and/or stop the Iraq war.  That's always been the deal with Moveon.  You can disagree with their strategy, and the great thing about the internets is that you can organize and do whatever you want and no one's going to stop you.  But a criticism of Moveon along the lines that Stauber is offering, that they are operating unaccountably and undemocratically, is simply a mimick of his earlier (and mostly correct) arguments about a corporate media system that creates bottlenecks to control citizens.  Only, Moveon isn't creating any bottlenecks, they are and have been doing what their members want, which is to work through the political process to end the war as best they can.

Ultimately, we should not be fooled into thinking that an attempt to wield power from within the system is wrong on its face or that it's not representative of Moveon's membership.  Moveon members have a relatively long history of involvement and support for members of the Democratic Party.  Many long-term progressive activists and insiders have traditionally and correctly seen no value in supporting what was a corrupted Democratic coalition, but they should now adjust their strategies accordingly as the public and the Democratic Party shifts away from the right in a once in a generation tectonic electoral realignment.  There's a lot of work to do in bringing America away from a right-wing national security state.  There is no magic bullet, and attempting to marginalize and undermine allies who have come into the process within the last ten years and who have a significant base and exciting and effective tools certainly isn't it.

Tags: John Stauber, MoveOn (all tags)

Comments

41 Comments

Re: Myths About Moveon

Look Matt. I just couldn't read all that today. I am so sick of this 'supplemental' bullshit. I just read Kucinich on Truthdig, where he says that the difference between Democratic and Republicans who voted to give Bush $124 billion for any wars he wants with a few token restrictions, which he will veto, and then be offered even fewer token restrictions... was a mere handful? What good are these people if they just vote like Republicans? This is insane. $124 billion for this??? I am enraged. I don't want to hear from any one except maybe Jim Webb right now. Sorry.

Kucinich wants something called HR 1234.

by blues 2007-03-25 09:22AM | 0 recs
another bitter disappointment coming

"I don't want to hear from any one except maybe Jim Webb right now."

??

I'm as big a supporter of Jim Webb as anyone, but he's said since the beginning of his campaign a year ago that he doesn't want to vote for a withdrawal timeline attached to funding.

That's what's on offer in the Senate version of the supplemental, and unless something changes I'm expecting him to vote against it.  He said as much on some news show recently.

by Nell 2007-03-25 10:10AM | 0 recs
Re: another bitter disappointment coming

yep. he said he was against a withdrawal timeline during his speech at the national press club on wednesday (3/22/07). you can watch the streaming webcast at c-span.

by the time this bill gets out of the senate, through the house/senate reconciliation process - i can't see how there is going to be any withdrawal timeline left. if that happens, bush will have gotten what he wants - funding for his war/occupation for the rest of his term. and the house just helped him get it.

i hope to god i am completely wrong on this. i will be very happy in a month to be able to say i was a complete idiot on how this would go down.

by selise 2007-03-25 10:36AM | 0 recs
Re: another bitter disappointment coming

Take a longer view.  We didn't get into this war without forty years of organizing by conservatives, and we're not going to get out with one election no matter how clever the legislative strategy.

by Matt Stoller 2007-03-25 10:38AM | 0 recs
Re: another bitter disappointment coming

matt - to me this bill looked good in the very short term and bad everywhere else. i don't know that my analysis is correct - and i'm really, really hoping to be wrong.

imo, the discussions (although painful) are good to have, and i again thank you for participating in them - even when (or especially when) there are such strong feelings and disagreements.

and i do believe we're all on the same side here...

by selise 2007-03-25 11:17AM | 0 recs
Re: another bitter disappointment coming

We are all on the same side if we act like it.  If I had to guess, I'd say that nothing that we do for the next two years will have any effect on the military situation in Iraq, and can only set up a better electoral landscape for progressives in 2008 or an impeachment prior to that.

This bill is important or the precedent it sets, but it's only a small first step.

by Matt Stoller 2007-03-25 11:31AM | 0 recs
Re: another bitter disappointment coming

You have no realistic alternative. Kucinich? Are you kidding? Watch the vote collapse to under 100, and then where would we be?

Stay out of the tent, telling the rest of us we're crazy. Time will tell. If you're right, the Democrats will have moved that way.

When you deal with Democratic Party, the oldest political party in the world, you're not dealing with a revolutionary vanguard.

Remember Murtha's first press conference? Remember how many Democrats voted with him? Kerry got, what, 12 votes? I'd say the change to a winning vote is significant. For a long time now, they've just been quarelling about how long to wait before we leave. Aside from Joltin' Joe, name another Democrat who's with Bush?

by Swift2001 2007-03-25 11:51PM | 0 recs
Jim Webb voted against Sanders bill

As did Jon Tester and 8 other Democrats. The rest of the Democrats voted for it. Sanders bill would have rescinded the tax cuts for the top 1% and used the money to pay for several good causes.

I would really like to hear why two candidates who ran on an economic populist platform would vote the complete opposite of that platform.

Webb is a conservative so I figured he would vote neocon on social issues, but I did expect him to be populist on his economic votes. So far, big disappointment.

Tester is the more shocking of the two, being a small businessman and organic farmer. Don't know if it was the property tax issue or what--but I will be watching both very closely.

by Truthteller 2007-03-26 10:18AM | 0 recs
Re: Myths About Moveon

Kucinich is not a credible figure and should not be taken seriously as anything but an attention-seeker.  For instance, Kucinich just called Fox News a 'legitimate news outlet' and argued that Democrats were cowards for not going on there to debate.  Kucinich profits when the left loses, which is why he hated Howard Dean in 2004 and consistently attacked him more aggressively than any other candidate.

He's also not a particularly clean politician in terms of progressive politics, and I'm not just talking about his anti-choice views which switched in 2003 as he started to run for President.

As those who are familiar with Kucinich's career know, he's been in and out of elective office almost literally since he was a kid. Now, some folks have written in to tell me that Cleveland Magazine has a long-standing beef with Kucinich. But I've read a good bit of press coverage on Kucinich from the 1970s. And the point about racial politics is not limited to that article or publication.

Basically, in the early days -- before he was running citywide, let alone nationwide -- Kucinich's political schtick was posing as the champion of the 'forgotten' white ethnic voters over against the rising force of black political power. Sort of a great white hope type, or great Slavic hope, if you will.

There was plenty of acrimony between blacks and white ethnic voters in Northern cities in the late 1960s and early 1970s. So it was fertile political ground. And playing on that divide for political gain was not at all uncommon. That fissure, after all, was one of the things that broke apart the Democrats' coalition in the North. Kucinich didn't create it. But at the time some pols chose to play to it while others didn't.

Now, what does it mean? This was a long time ago. And at the time Kucinich was, almost literally, a kid. When he was elected Mayor later in the decade I think he was still only 31. Plenty of folks from the South who are still active in politics today -- many of whom now get lots of black votes -- were still segregationists in the early 1960s. So people do change their stripes. And bygones often get considered bygones.

But people have been scrutinizing the backgrounds of a lot of politicians from the South, particularly Republicans -- I have as much as anyone. So I don't think it's unfair to raise this point. This is particularly so since Kucinich is now putting himself forward as a candidate for national office as the champion of the progressive wing of the Democratic party.

People do 'evolve' politically -- and not just in the euphemistic, wink-wink kind of sense. People really do change. And they change their style of politics too. But usually, for this to work, or be legitimate and believable, the pol in question has to make some sort of public accounting for why circumstances changed or why he or she did.

Given that Kucinich is now making a play for the votes of dyed-in-the-wool liberals, a bit more of such an accounting seems in order.

by Matt Stoller 2007-03-25 10:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Myths About Moveon

Thanks for a response, Matt. Let me first address what Nell said:

I'm as big a supporter of Jim Webb as anyone, but he's said since the beginning of his campaign a year ago that he doesn't want to vote for a withdrawal timeline attached to funding.

I know, somewhere in the back of my head about this. It's a military approach: you don't give your script to the other side. My point is, I Congress just forgets about giving Bush this $124 BILLION, there won't be a timeline any way.

Matt:

To say that Kucinich 'is not a credible figure' is pretty extravagant. He is not perfect! (Which candidate walks on water?) But he's been right a hell of a lot lately. In fact, he would be my choice if I thought the stars were lined up for him.

Give BUSH another $124 BILLION for WAR??? No frickin way. NO FRICKIN WAY!!!

by blues 2007-03-25 10:45AM | 0 recs
Re: Myths About Moveon

Give BUSH another $124 BILLION for WAR??? No frickin way. NO FRICKIN WAY!!!

Start with the world as it is, not as you wish it to be.  American has an army in Iraq, and it will cost at least as much as that to withdraw it.  America also has a President that acts like a dictator, one that must be brought down before we can begin to withdraw troops.  Money is going to troops in Iraq, and you should get used to that fact.  The elections of 2000, 2002, and 2004 had consequences, as did our failure to end the Cold War.  This is one of the tragedies of American history unfolding in front of our eyes.  As Americans, though, we have to accept responsibility for our country's actions and do the best we can.

by Matt Stoller 2007-03-25 11:29AM | 0 recs
Matt, please rethink some of your language here

Matt: I respect your views and what you have accomplished with this site.

However, when I read phrases like "start with the world as it is, not as you wish it to be," or "Money is going to troops in Iraq, and you should get used to that fact," I cringe at the subtle but evident condescension, which I trust was not deliberate on your part.

As someone who has been involved with a series of against-the-odds victories at the grassroots level over the past decade, I am used to hearing such phrases from those in the Democratic establishment (not something I consider you part of... yet).

Countless times I was told by folks who valued their positions and influence more than their own ostensible ideals that our goals in various David-v.-Goliath battles were unrealistic, unachievable, even dangerous... and that our methods were extreme, overly radical, etc.

Every time, however, the people won when they stood up for what they really wanted -- not what professional politicians and pundits told us was possible.

In one of these battles, our adversary spent $60 million on their campaign (in a town of just 7,500 people) and the bad guys still lost. We won, by the way, without help from our Democratic Senators (Clinton and Schumer) or Attorney General (Spitzer), and other party officials who dodged the issue like the plague while the little guys and gals at the grassroots did all the gutsy, hard work.

So I don't have much patience for Dems who say what is and isn't possible to achieve.

The war is wrong, dead wrong, deeply unpopular, and getting moreso by the day. What this past few weeks says to me? That one of the biggest obstacles to ending that war is simply a lack of real leadership, guts, and imagination in the party, in my opinion.

So please be careful about sounding even a little bit like you're lecturing people about recognizing realities, etc. It's not that there aren't unrealistic people on the left (as in all ideological camps) but saying so is kind of an ugly and defensive habit of the elements of our party who you, among others, have historically challenged to aim higher.

by Hudson 2007-03-25 05:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Myths About Moveon

matt - i see that people who's good will and intelligence i have no reason to doubt, have their reasons to support the house supplemental bill that passed on friday.

i don't support that bill (i think it was both stupid and immoral), but i do support people (like chris and david sirota) who see it differently than i do (and i hope like heck they are right and i am wrong).

but what moveon did is something else. they conducted a push poll... that looked like it was designed to manipulate the membership.

after many years of support i cancelled my membership - not because of the outcome of moveon's poll - but because of how it was done.

whoever at moveon wrote that poll and decided to sent it to the membership owes us an apology.

by selise 2007-03-25 09:33AM | 0 recs
Re: Myths About Moveon

Utter hogwash. First of all, a push poll is not even a poll, so to call an actual poll a "push poll" suggests that one doesn't quite understand what they are.

What I assume is meant is that the poll was misleading, apparently because it did not include an alternative in the form of the Barbara Lee amendment.

Folks, there WAS NO LEE AMENDMENT. She did not offer it in committee, because she knew it would not pass. However, she did use the threat of the bill and her own influence to force Pelosi to keep timelines in the majority bill in the first place.

The text in the poll is completely fair, as far as I'm concerned:

"As early as Wednesday, the House may vote on a Democratic proposal on Iraq. The proposal was put together by Speaker Pelosi and Congressmen Obey and Murtha. It is going to be a close vote--the Republicans are against it and some conservative Democrats are uncomfortable with the bill.

Most, but not all, of the progressives in Congress are planning on voting for the bill. These progressives, like many of us, don't think the bill goes far enough, but see it as the first concrete step to ending the war. And President Bush is threatening to veto it for the same reason.

I've told Rep. Murtha that this was a decision for MoveOn's members to make. Now I'm asking you to help make it. Should we support or oppose the Democrats' plan?"

The only bill on the table was this one. The text notes that most anti-war progressives in the House planned to vote for it. That may have been a bit of a fudge, depending on your view of who the progressives are--perhaps at the time it was written, maybe only half were on board. But of course in the end, it was true. And it's clearly spelled out WHY some may not have voted for it--because it didn't go far enough.

Who in MoveOn can't parse that? The bill was a middle of the road bill, that conservative Dems thought went too far and progressive Dems think didn't go far enough. In that context, do YOU favor the bill in the end, was the question. How is that not fair?

Look, I don't think it's a great bill either. But it does take a step forward, whereas a bill that would not have passed, would not. Let's take the next step that even MoveOn favors, as they noted in the results. But let's take the step as it comes.

by torridjoe 2007-03-25 09:52AM | 0 recs
NO

my complaint was not specifically about the absence of the lee amendment - if that is how you read my comment, you are mistaken.

imo, the language was slanted to encourage members to support the bill.  "the language is obviously slanted toward people voting in favor" (this from chris bowers who has some experience in polling).

here are a couple of definitions of push polling (here, and here). if you have another definition, please let me know - i would be happy to be better informed. that is why i specifically asked chris if this was not a push poll - and he did not tell me i was wrong. maybe i am - if that is the case, then make an argument other than shouting "hogwash".

now, it is quite possible that the outcome of the poll would have been similar if it had not been slanted (i think chris make that argument) - and if that is what had happened, i would still be a member. but it didn't - because there wasn't a poll to solicite opinion, there was a poll that served to shape opinion.

arguing that the outcome of the poll was the "correct" outcome COMPLETELY ignores the complaint i did make.

....

here is the text (in full) of the moveon poll:

Dear MoveOn member,

We've got a big decision coming up this week, and we need to make it together, as a community.

As early as Wednesday, the House may vote on a Democratic proposal on Iraq. The proposal was put together by Speaker Pelosi and Congressmen Obey and Murtha. It is going to be a close vote--the Republicans are against it and some conservative Democrats are uncomfortable with the bill.

Most, but not all, of the progressives in Congress are planning on voting for the bill. These progressives, like many of us, don't think the bill goes far enough, but see it as the first concrete step to ending the war. And President Bush is threatening to veto it for the same reason.

I've told Rep. Murtha that this was a decision for MoveOn's members to make. Now I'm asking you to help make it. Should we support or oppose the Democrats' plan? Just click here to register your view:

Support the Plan.

Not Sure

Oppose the Plan

by selise 2007-03-25 10:28AM | 0 recs
Re: NO

A push poll is a tool used to fool voters, not a data gathering technique.  You do push polls to spread misinformation.  An organization calling undecided voters and asking 'Would you support candidate A if you knew that he beat his wife' while posing as a research outfit is engaging in push polling.

Moveon might have phrased its question poorly, but it was not a push poll.

by Matt Stoller 2007-03-25 10:31AM | 0 recs
Re: NO

you don't think that anyone was encouraged to support the bill by the wording in moveon's poll?

by selise 2007-03-25 10:38AM | 0 recs
Re: NO

I didn't make an argument on that one way or another.  I honestly don't know.

What I will say is that the choice presented in the bill is the same presented to members of Congress.

by Matt Stoller 2007-03-25 10:39AM | 0 recs
Re: NO

none of us know for a fact (unless there is some data on different wordings).

it does look awfully slanted to me... (and my objection is not so much to the choice offered - but how those choices were described). do you, at least, see how it looks slanted (even if you don't know)?

i don't think it is unreasonable to see this as a slanted poll. after all, i am not alone in thinking the poll was slanted (even chris agrees).

that is my objection.

from a comment i wrote over at hullabaloo (where a similar conversation is going on):

maybe the poll was written in haste, without thinking it through and seeing how slanted it was... it doesn't take bad motives. maybe it was a mistake - in which case there should be an apology. that would be fine, i'd happily ask to have my membership reinstated.

but if moveon, or other people/organizations think it is ok to manipulate members (even if inadvertently done) to get the desired outcome, that is NOT ok with me. that is NOT an organization i am going to support.

complaining about it, withdrawing my support - this is all about accountability. something i'd like to think we have.

it is march 2007. not after the primary and before the general election. this is our best time to hold our politicians and our institutions (conservative or progressive) accountable.

by selise 2007-03-25 11:13AM | 0 recs
Re: NO

it does look awfully slanted to me... (and my objection is not so much to the choice offered - but how those choices were described). do you, at least, see how it looks slanted (even if you don't know)?

No, I don't.  This choice was what faced members of Congress.  I see bias in this question, as there's always bias.  But I don't see malice.  This is good data, and 140,000 people or so participated in the vote.

We should stop pretending they are stupid.

by Matt Stoller 2007-03-25 11:34AM | 0 recs
Re: NO

First, I want to say that I respect Matt, Chris, and David Sirota and your position and I hope that you are right. I am wary of the way this turned out because it seemed that progressives are always forced to go along with the militarists instead of us pushing the militarists to compromise with us. I hope my caution is unwarranted. Anyway, that said:

You are right that the MoveOn question was the same one that Congress faced, but we are not in Congress. We are outsiders.

I would have preferred that MoveOn would have asked us: Do you think we should lobby progressive members of Congress to vote for this bill? Do you think we should lobby Republicans and conservative Democrats to vote for this bill or should we lobby them to cut off all funding for the war?

I would guess that most MoveOn members would say that we should lobby Repubicans and consevative Democrats to cut off all funding and hope that they would see the Pelosi bill as a compromise. And MoveOn members might say we should lobby progressives to vote against the bill to ensure that the bill stayed strong and is not watered down even further. These particular strategies might have been better than just blindly supporting the Pelosi bill.

It was this lack of other ways of going about this that bothered me. I felt like MoveOn was being led down the primrose path by the militarists as we often are. It wasn't until I read David Sirota's article that I really understood the strategy and how it might work.

In general, I really like the work that MoveOn does. I think they are very savvy and have done some great work. But I also think they have made some mistakes. When I saw this poll, I was very frustrated with it and how little it explained the strategy. In the past, MoveOn often wrote very detailed messages with lots of footnotes -- the messages educated their membership and got buyin. This message was not at all infomative and felt more manipulative to me. I would have preferred an explanation and no poll to what we got from MoveOn this time.

by RandomNonviolence 2007-03-25 03:26PM | 0 recs
Re: NO

There is not one shred of dishonesty in that question. He presented the choice as he saw it. Turns out, it worked out just that way: a close vote. You would rather have had the Lee amendment, which would have died an immediate, pointless and embrassing death? How much of a loser would the Dems seem to be then?

Tell you what, I'm not voting for you for Speaker. A speaker that organized the party that way would be headed for the exits very fast.

Yes, I would rather have had, "Immediate withdrawal, no more money for anything but redeployment, and oh, by the way, Bush is impeached." But I'd like to be married to Shakira, too. Ain't gonna happen.

by Swift2001 2007-03-26 12:06AM | 0 recs
Re: Myths About Moveon

"Look, I don't think it's a great bill either. But it does take a step forward, whereas a bill that would not have passed, would not."

Line above I agree with. I'm a MoveOn member and I voted "yes" to the supplemental. If you watch MoveOn's polls you see its members are a lot more pragmatic than you would think.

On a side note - calling Bill Clinton a "conservative" is a bit over the top. He appeased the Republican Congress one too many times for my liking, but overall he's not any way a "conservative."

by GregNYC 2007-03-25 10:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Myths About Moveon

I'd say he is moderate to conservative for a democrat on many issues.

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-25 11:10AM | 0 recs
Re: Myths About Moveon

I think most Democrats would disagree with you.

by GregNYC 2007-03-25 04:40PM | 0 recs
John Stauber and Madison

Don't forget that John Stauber hails from Madison, although apparently living on the west side (the fucking sellout ;). I share those roots and many here do. He is a little late to the party, being a Nader supporter in 2000, but then very publicly moving to Kerry in 2004.

It is hard for some of us to come over to the Dems, speaking as a "premature anti-fascist" myself having lined up with MoveOn in 1998 and the left blogosphere from the beginning. 2000 was the first time I ever put up a yard sign for a presidential candidate, for Gore, and almost came to blows with a neighbor over his Bore / Gush sign.

It is happening though. It broke my heart in 2000 seeing my east side neighborhood going 35% for Nader and I told many ex-friends to go fuck themselves. Back now though, and John is behind the curve. My ward cast eighteen votes for pig Nader in 2004.

by MikeB 2007-03-25 10:43AM | 0 recs
Re: John Stauber and Madison

I like and respect Stauber, and he has earned the right to say what he did.  I think though that his arguments are more a reflection of the strategic landscape as it existed when he came of age as opposed to the one we're now facing.  He's also going after a valuable ally in a way that I think is unfair.

by Matt Stoller 2007-03-25 11:07AM | 0 recs
I agree with MoveOn and you

That is why I am puzzled when they describe MoveOn or Dean supporters as extreme leftist liberal.

I see MoveOn, netroots as middle class constituents of the Dem Party that are usually quiet but became angry to the excesses of GOP starting from Clinton's impeachment and peaking with the Iraq War.

Democrats have been previously perceive by their one-issue constituent groups (labor, women, environment, GLBT, etc) who are really only loyal to their issue and not to Democrats.

Those who complain, many are not really Democrats.  

by jasmine 2007-03-25 11:11AM | 0 recs
Re: I agree with MoveOn and you

They call MoveOn "radical leftist" for the same reason they said that Valerie Plame wasn't covert, or that she wangled the deal to send her husband on a little jaunt to Niger, or that "no one ever said the levees might break." They lie for political advantage, and they never, ever stop.

by Swift2001 2007-03-25 11:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Myths About Moveon

"None of us knows how to wield power in this new political world, where the public is liberal, the military industrial state is cannibalizing itself, and the political system is (slowly) reorienting itself around this shocking new paradigm"

It's not just because I'm closer to Stauber's age and political trajectory that this strikes me as a wildly optimistic and inaccurate description.

I'm not as harsh about MoveOn's role in the manipulation of its poll as Stauber, but only because I've always seen MoveOn as an element of the Democratic Party rather than as an independent progressive actor.  

But there was manipulation, and I don't see any point in pretending that there wasn't.  The email's subject line didn't mention that it was a member vote, the presentation of the issue was stacked, there was no deadline for voting, and there was no commitment to report back with the vote count.

There's a case to be made that once Rep. Lee failed to offer her legislation as an amendment in the appropriations markup, there was no meaningful choice but the leadership bill or nothing.  But MoveOn, and other advocates of the leadership bill, didn't make that case -- they just airbrushed the Lee amendment out of existence.

That shows a certain failure to respect the membership, an unwillingness to trust their decision-making capacity.  If the membership is so overwhelmingly people to whom partisan Democrats' fortunes are a major concern (something I think the post is correct about), then all the more reason to put the issue honestly before them -- the outcome would still be the one desired.

The only way members have to hold MoveOn's leadership (funders and staff) accountable is through public criticism, withholding contributions, and, ultimately, withdrawing participation. I don't think this instance is enough to warrant either of the last two for me, but the people who make decisions there (and I'm not talking about the members) need to hear from those of us who saw the push poll for what it was.

by Nell 2007-03-25 11:14AM | 0 recs
Re: Myths About Moveon

Not to nitpick, but this wasn't a push poll.  Your terminology is off.

by Matt Stoller 2007-03-25 11:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Myths About Moveon

Not the time, the investment. 124 BILLION DOLLARS FOR WAR! FUCK THAT!!!

by blues 2007-03-25 12:33PM | 0 recs
Re: http://warranty.2itb.com/used/

This is spam, so I'm troll rating you.

by proudtobeliberal 2007-03-25 12:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Myths About Moveon

I've been saying for years that sooner or later the upstarts who call themselves the progressive blogosphere would have their masks pulled off to reveal themselves as nothing but power-hungry sell-outs.

I'm just surprised that it happened so soon.

by Disputo 2007-03-25 04:09PM | 0 recs
THANK YOU for reminding us that MoveOn is us all

Thank you for reminding us that MoveOn is representing a wide spectrum of people who believe in a democratic (small-d) nation, and who have worked hard to help us maintain it.

It's true that MoveOn does not always encourage 100% of what I'd like. (Who does?)

But they are effective, responsive to members, and making an impact in DC. (No wonder the conservatives would like to portray MoveOn as "too liberal" or "leftie."

Even when all MoveOn members don't agree with their actions (want to push them further, for example) they are responsive -- to the extent that I got a lengthy, thoughtful letter in response to my concern about the recent poll that supported the legislation that Pelosi moved forward.

by MS 2007-03-25 04:37PM | 0 recs
Proud to support MoveOn

MoveOn asked for feedback, half a dozen other groups told me what to think.  Move On gets $50, the rest get squat.

Coming from a very red area in a middling blue state (WA) I learned long ago that small victories count.  Bush rants that he will veto the bill if it reaches his desk but it's the Democrats fault if the troops aren't funded. This has got to make Republicans looking at tight races cringe.  Cheney admits that the Bush Administration and the last two Republican run Congresses haven't supported the troops. His unthinking attack that it's a myth that you can support the troops without giving them the tools they need is as damning an indictment of how the Republicans have managed this war as anything I've ever heard.

It's time to move on to the next round.  Contact your Senators, personally, and let them know where you would like to see this appropriation go.

by macamma 2007-03-25 05:19PM | 0 recs
The AP and WP as our objective source of info?


"In the past, MoveOn often wrote very detailed messages with lots of footnotes -- the messages educated their membership and got buyin."

I agree.  I was very disappointed that the only articles that the poll gave for us to become educated on the issue were an AP article in the NYT and another from the Washington Post.

Obviously it would be hard for Moveon to decide who to use as a counter "objective" opinion, but I'm sure they could have come up with something.  By not doing that, they did the progressive movement a disservice.

I read the two articles and then voted "not sure".  I also wrote a comment back that suggested that they should have given us other info on the issue outside the corporate press.

Then Moveon wrote an email that showed the results.  They also gave us comments from many people who voted in favor of the supplemental.  What about the other side?  Just a couple comments from the other side would have been appropriate.

I, probably like many others, joined Moveon way back when, not to defend Bill Clinton, but because the impeachment process against him was ridiculous.  There is a difference.  Transparency and integrity - that's what I see as the promise of internet activism.  I understand that Moveon sometimes pragmatically supports mainstream candidates.  I'm a Moveon member because I feel they have done it with integrity.  I didn't feel that transparency and integrity with Moveon's poll and the aftermath and it disappoints me.

As you said Matt...

"Many long-term progressive activists and insiders have traditionally and correctly seen no value in supporting what was a corrupted Democratic coalition, but they should now adjust their strategies accordingly as the public and the Democratic Party shifts away from the right in a once in a generation tectonic electoral realignment."

A major part of this tectonic movement has been that we have been vigilant to expose the corporate press for what it is and encourage skepticism of it.  Moveon tacitly acknowledged the corporate press as a valid source of objective information with their poll.  I hope they'll be careful to not do that again.

by ChrisSF 2007-03-25 06:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Myths About Moveon

I've been reading this site a couple months and I am becoming increasing impressed with the quality of Stroller's posts. Keep up the good work.

by wiretapp 2007-03-25 11:01PM | 0 recs
Is anyone really buying this?

On that chart, random sample with no controls and a sample size that doesn't correlate to a 3.2 million membership. I won't get into methodology too much but 1900 people and no controls does not reflect a multi-million membership org. I have been part of multiple surveys as both someone who conducts them and has been surveyed. The PEW ones are constantly skewed to leading the reader into a certain direction, as was the case on the Dean campaign one I took a few years ago.

Polls are good for creating propaganda, especially in the hands of a skillful manipulator.

The bigger issue though, is before you go defending Moveon, keep in mind only 3% of their membership even bothered to vote in the supplemental poll/survey. 3%!!! Apparently their members do not have much confidence their voices will be heard if only 3% voted.

That is hardly enough to make a major decision like this and then say the Moveon membership supported it. 85% of 3% supported it --or 2.55% if you believe Eli. Sounds worse than Bush administration support.

I have been a long time Moveon member. Most of the members I spoke with stated they did not vote because they already knew what Eli had planned to support the supplemental and didn't trust the sincerity of the poll: "Worthless poll, and offensive to say it represents us. If 85% had said not to support the supplemental, they still would have found a way to do it."

In the past year, Moveon.org has lost its way. Numerous stupid strategy decisions -- it looks like a 5th grader has taken over. Eli might be good at getting people excited to join, but he is not a  person who has the experience (life or otherwise) to be a strategizer or voice for the org. Give a kid $140,000 grand a year with no accountability and it is pretty easy to see what has happened to this org. They need more adults running it and need to go back to the original vision which was first watered down by 2005 and now it seems completely lost. If they want to be a conservative org or a branch of the Democratic Party Blue Dogs, that is their decision. Just be up front and honest and stop d*cking the donors around, then patronizing us with some bull on why the decision was made when a poll was created to justify the decision, not the other way around (sound familiar?)

Oh yeah, why don't we run some more ads against McCain. That's a good use of our money. NOT!

by Truthteller 2007-03-26 10:10AM | 0 recs
by xililo 2007-05-21 06:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Myths About Moveon

In the past year, Moveon.org has lost its way. Numerous stupid strategy decisions -- it looks like a 5th grader has taken over. Eli might be good at getting people excited to join, but he is not a  person who has the experience (life or otherwise) to be a strategizer or voice for the org. Give a kid $140,000 grand a year with no accountability and it is pretty easy to see what has happened to this org. They need more adults running it and need to go back to the original vision which was first watered down by 2005 and now it seems completely lost. If they want to be a conservative org or a branch of the Democratic Party Blue Dogs, that is their decision. Just be up front and honest and stop d*cking the donors around, then patronizing us with some bull on why the decision was made when a poll was created to justify the decision, not the other way around (sound familiar?)

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by ikermollas 2007-06-11 10:43PM | 0 recs

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