Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generation Gap?

This week, both Dailykos and MyDD held our monthly straw polls. You can see the results for Dailykos here, and the results for MyDD here. For both websites, it was the first straw poll taken without Clark as an option. It also produced the first widely divergent results between our two websites that I have ever noticed. While both blogs placed Edwards and Obama first and second, on Dailykos, John Edwards won a comfortable victory over Obama, 38%--26%, while on MyDD Obama won a narrow victory over Edwards, 36%--33%. Not only is that a large, fifteen point gap between the two websites, it is entirely possible that Edwards is even more popular than that on Dailykos (he was running at 40% after 10,000 votes) and that Obama is even more popular than that on MyDD (considering the Obama poll stuffing incident). While these polls are not scientifically random samples of the readership of the two blogs, I don't think the differences between them can be entirely dismissed on those grounds. Something more fundamental is causing this growing divergence.

In search of an answer, I went looking through the archives of the popular diary series "Demographic Tuesdays" on Dailykos, and through the results of the recent demographic survey of MyDD readers. In most categories, there was broad similarity: education level, income, religion, race / ethnicity, and GLBT as a percentage of the readership. There were only two areas where there was noticeable divergence. First, the readership of MyDD is much younger than that of Dailykos--almost twice as many MyDD readers are under the age of 30 than at Dailykos (30% to 15%), and the median age difference is at least eight years. Second, Dailykos has a much higher percentage of women readers than does MyDD. The Demographic Tuesday poll on the subject indicated a gap of 33%--22%, but previous polls I have seen on both sites suggest the gap is significantly larger than that.

The reason for this difference is probably one of voice. The best research I have ever seen on the subject (non-public research, unfortunately), suggests that even in the supposedly identity-blind world of the Internet, people gravitate toward content produced by those with whom they share cultural and demographic similarity. Looking at the three writers who produce about 95% of the front-page content on MyDD, Matt, Jonathan and myself, we are all dudes and have an average age of just under 29. Looking at the writers of Dailykos, there are six women among the sixteen regular contributors. Further, I am younger than twelve of them, Matt is younger than fifteen of them, and Jonathan is younger than all of them. Dailykos has both an older and a more female group of writers, which I believe is the main reason why they have an older and more female audience. That Dailykos has an older audience, I believe, why Edwards does better on Dailykos, and why Obama does better on MyDD.

Age and gender are both clear factors in 2008 candidate preferences among the Democratic electorate nationwide, so why shouldn't they also be factors within the blogosphere? Consider, for example, that the most comprehensive crosstabs of the Democratic primary electorate to date were published last month by Pew. According to those crosstabs, Obama did vastly better among younger Democrats than he did among older Democrats, while for Edwards the situation was reversed. It is not just Pew, either. Virtually every polls has shown Obama performing particularly strong among younger voters, wile Edwards does better among older voters. I can't prove it definitively, but I think the age gap between MyDD and Dailykos is one of the main causes, if not the main cause, behind the different preferences for Edwards and Obama in straw polls on the two sites. (There may also be a gendered element in the Dailykos preference for Edwards, possibly stemming from many feminist bloggers liking Edwards, although I do not really have any evidence to back that up at this time).

This may have already been obvious, considering Obama's ridiculous success on a generally younger site like Facebook. What was perhaps less obvious, and also only interesting in a meta sense, is that MyDD has a younger readership than Dailykos. Who knew? In discussions in the comments at Dailykos, the most common criticism I read of MyDD is how we are just too damn serious all of the time. Who would have thought that we young guys would also be more "serious." Then again, that might have more to do with the focus of MyDD than anything else, since we are geared toward political professionals, and Dailykos draws on people with a much wider range of backgrounds. People who make a living in politics tend to be on the younger side of things, as it is probably best to get out of this business before it beats you down too badly.

It is funny, in a Phillp-Frye-is-his-own-grandfather sort of way, that the "blogfather" has now somehow become younger than its offspring. It is even stranger when you consider that I got my start writing diaries on Dailykos, and then made the move to the older blog where Markos started writing. Ugh. It is probably because I should be asleep, but I'm getting a headache even thinking about that.

Tags: Barack Obama, Blogosphere, Demographics, John Edwards, meta, President 2008, straw poll (all tags)



As I've said before,

If either HRC or Obama appear on the ballot, I am going to be a no show at polls. And, I can barely tolerate Edwards - though, he has shown some maturity lately.

Can we not get, or do we not deserve anything better than HRC/Obama/Edwards?.

I, and my friends have long agonized over why Mark Warner/ Al Gore/ Wilsack are not running.

by saguaro 2007-03-16 02:01AM | 0 recs
OT: MyDD NCAA Brackets

How about a quick thread to talk about the MyDD brackets at ESPN?

There are 17 MyDD players tied for first after the first sixteen games with a record of 14-2 each.  Big separation possible tonight as a number of leaders have picked a minor upset: Nova over Kentucky and a few have picked a major upset of Texas A&M over Wisconsin.

by Arthurkc 2007-03-16 07:07AM | 0 recs
Re: OT: MyDD NCAA Brackets

There's a message board on the Challenge page. I put up a comment. The "help" buttons are not much help over there.

by Books Alive 2007-03-16 07:46AM | 0 recs
You're in the minority on this

All of my friends are pretty excited about our choices.  Maybe it's because they're mostly either minority, gay or female.

While none of the candidates are perfect, they each offer something that excites us.  More importantly, they each are much better than the current administration.

If you want someone to be "perfect" in your eyes, you may have to run yourself.

by exLogCabin 2007-03-16 07:09AM | 0 recs
Re: As I've said before,

Yeah that's a great attitude to have...

If you don't go out of your way to support the  Dem candidate, even if you don't like them... that's fine.  

If you want to vote third party, ok I can live with that.  

If you want to vote... republican (shudder) well that sucks but its your right...

But to choose not to vote at all is unforgivable to me.  

If you are a Dem, even if you don't like the noms, you should vote for them or perhaps a liberal 3rd party candidate (although after 2000, I'm not too happy about that too... damn Nader).  You don't need to compaign for them but one could argue if more Dems came out in 2000 or 2004, we would either not be in Iraq or be out of there.

In other words, many people died to give you the right to vote.  Don't dishonor them by not doing it.  

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 07:52AM | 0 recs
Let me get this straight...

No show at the polls. So you are saying that neither of them is even slightly better then any of the neo-cons running? I would have to disagree!

By the way... Don't discount Wes Clark.

As I said in another comment...

"Please.. don't give me the meme about it being to late. I thought that at one point but now it is looking like it may be to early. The others are beating up on each other and the press is going along with it. They are being damaged."

by kevin22262 2007-03-16 07:52AM | 0 recs

Bill Richardson is the Dem candidate for today, just nobody else seems to know it.

He's got great experience, having run a Department, been in the UN, been a diplomat, been a governor and a whole buncha other stuff.

He's from the southwest.

He's smart and pretty laid-back.

Hispanic, at least 50%.

I really like this guy.

by dataguy 2007-03-16 09:43AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

I have nothing to back this up other than anecdotal evidence:

I'm young (22), and although I read both websites, I follow MyDD far more closely than DKos.  MyDD is sort of like a "blogtank," where new ideas are formed and explained.  Although MyDD may be more in-depth or "serious" than Daily Kos, it also covers the basics of politics more thoroughly.

To me, the Daily Kos front page is styled more like an editorial section of a newspaper than something that offers new ideas or analysis.  Daily Kos resonates with its audience because there are pre-existing principles that everyone already agrees upon.

So, MyDD readers may be younger because they are more interested in incorporating new ideas to their worldview, or they may skew younger simply because MyDD spends more time focusing on the "basics."

by whogotthegravy 2007-03-16 02:12AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

Clarification: I'm not saying that I think that MyDD is better than Daily Kos, but rather that MyDD caters to my personal tastes more.

by whogotthegravy 2007-03-16 05:06AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

I agree with that... I'm 29 and feel the exact same way... I like MyDD better because it fits to my personal tastes of style.

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 07:53AM | 0 recs
I lurk and babble

on both sites, but for me Kos is all about the diaires, writing them and rec'ing them; I barely ever even read the frontpage posts, not often to know the tastes and tendencies of the posters. As such Kos is a little more interactive and, of course, the audience is bigger. I wouldn't waste of my pearls of wisdom on a My DD diary, cause who the hell reads them? So, here, finally is my point: I think the pro-Edwards sentiment over at Kos has something to do with the pro-Edwards diaries that pop up over there. As far as I can tell, there almost never are pro-Obama diaries over there, in part because he hasn't done much that warrants an exclamation mark in the eyes of progressives.

by david mizner 2007-03-16 08:36AM | 0 recs
Re: I lurk and babble

Nice shot there Dave.  You'd have been better off to say he hasn't done much that warrants an exclamation mark in the eyes of some progressives.  Not all progressives feel the way you do about Obama... many like him quite a bit.

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 09:33AM | 0 recs
No, I don't

doubt that he has support among progs; I just don't know why.

So here's a simple question: what bold thing has he done since entering office?

by david mizner 2007-03-16 10:06AM | 0 recs
Premise of the question is stupid

What should he need to have done "bold things" for?

He excites people and has a liberal voting record. That's more than enough for me.

by andgarden 2007-03-16 10:43AM | 0 recs

But only boldness is going to alter an unaccetable status quo, but hey, if to each her own: if being liberal and exciting is enough for you, that's grand.

by david mizner 2007-03-16 12:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Okay

I'm sorry... I was trying to figure out the bold bills John Edwards passed while a senator... or Hillary Clinton?  

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 01:07PM | 0 recs
Should I take that answer

to mean that you could't come up with a single bold thing Obama's done in the last two years?

Cause Edwards was a senator a long time ago, and he's gotten a lot bolder and more progressive since then. And when he was a senator, from a conservative state, he opposed the flagburning amendment, one of only two redstate senators to do so. Opposing a bill that's wildly popular to your constituents and considered to be patriotic, that's pretty much he definition of bold.

by david mizner 2007-03-16 02:34PM | 0 recs
The big lie

"Edwards was a senator a long time ago"

Please, he was a Senator until 2005, and his voting record doesn't comport with the image he's now trying to cast of himself. I like Edwards plenty, but to ignore his tenure in the Senate would be absurd.

by andgarden 2007-03-16 02:45PM | 0 recs
Who ignored it?

I just discussed his tenure, and yeah, he's moving left-is that a bad thing?

by david mizner 2007-03-16 03:12PM | 0 recs
And isn't it telling

that I ask a simple question, name one bold thing that Obama has done, and his supporters can't answer it. No one his support in the netroots has leveled off.

by david mizner 2007-03-16 03:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Who ignored it?

You "discussed his tenure" by dismissing it out of hand. He's moving his rhetoric left; the voting record tells a different story.

Oh, and if you knew anything about Senate precedent, you'd understand that Senators are generally expected to be "seen and not heard" in the first session they attend. Even Senator Clinton acted accordingly.

by andgarden 2007-03-16 05:29PM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

I agree - many readers of daily kos diaries tend to be more narcissistic, flippant, knee-jerkish and less well-informed than those that frequent MyDD. It's understandable why Edwards' smooth, breck-girl good looks carries more appeal on daily kos than Obama's generally charismatic, though academically serious, persona on MyDD. Moreover, comments posted on daily kos reveal a paucity of knowledge of where Obama stands on most issues...

by mobiusein 2007-03-16 05:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

That is so insulting.  Age is no excuse.  Most MyDD Obama supporters refrain from personal attacks.  You should follow your (probably younger) cohorts who argue ideas, not crap like that.  

Comments like that drive people away from Obama.  Please don't support John Edwards.  You are helping Edwards by your support of Obama with comments like that.  

I think the software between the two cites makes a diference. Daily Kos is more user friendly and easier to make comments.

by littafi 2007-03-16 07:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

I agree.. that was uncalled for.   Edwards is a good man... And while I like Obama better, I think either will make a good President.  And based on the demos, it seems an Obama and Edwards ticket (either man in the first slot) would do well for us.

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 07:56AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

To be fair, there are Edwards supporters who make similiar comments about Obama... in both situations, it is wrong nad uncalled for.

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 07:57AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

I think that this is a gross overgeneralization.  Are you insinuating that DKos readers (such as myself) are unintelligent, ill-informed dolts who just like a pretty face?  As a 48-year-old, very well-informed and politically-engaged female I take offense to your statement and find it insulting.  There are a great many progressives on DKos of all ages, and I enjoy the diversity of opinion.  I also very much enjoy MyDD, which has a different focus; I consider both blogs equally valuable.

I think it is more likely that "older" progressives are less impressed with Obama's "rock star" status and are impatient with his statements on some of the issues (the recent misstep he made about Gen. Pace's statements is just one example).  He seems to be cut too much from the Hillary cloth with his careful, calculated responses (he really started to lose me when he "reached out" to the faith community and starting lecturing us progressives on how important it was to embrace one's faith and values).  For me, Edward's message resonates more deeply - certainly the economic disparity in this country (especially with regard to health care) needs to be addressed, and his apology about his vote on the war, his refusal to debate on Fox News, and his immediate statement repudiating Gen. Pace's remarks puts him in a better light as far as I'm concerned.

by CarolSoprano 2007-03-16 07:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

I'd also agree with this.  Although I check both daily, I don't have to wade through as much material at MyDD to find something I'd like to read.  It seems that following dailykos can be a full-time job, and it's damn-near impossible to follow the comments.  I'm also young and trying to learn about the nuts and bolts of political organizing and activism, and there is much more of that here.

by Oly 2007-03-16 07:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

Whogotthegravy is precisely right. You know, it's weird looking at trends and analyzing them, it's another thing altogether to look at them and say, "Hey, that's me!"

by afertig 2007-03-16 07:43AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

Chris, been watching the Cartoon Channel recently, huh?  They just ran that episode of Futurama in the last week with Frye going back in time to meet up with his "grandmother".

Obama will appeal to the younger demographic because he is closer in age than Edwards to new voters and because he is a fresh face on the national scene.  The latter might help him even more than the former.    We could call it the "lure of the new".  We'll see how that factor plays since this campaign is going seem like an eon by the time we get around to casting any ballots next year (or maybe the end of this year the way the states are leapfrogging their primaries).

by VizierVic 2007-03-16 02:59AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

I can't wait until the new episodes come out in 2008... Kick ASS!

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 07:59AM | 0 recs
A MyDD - Dailykos Generation Gap?

Hmm. Here I am, an old female, and I read MyDD nearly every day, and DKos rarely.

I'm here for the substance, the new ideas, the on-topic good manners (sorry if I offend anyone with that comment), and the practical political steps.

Maybe I'm actually "young" in political terms because I'm a Deanie who never did anything but vote before 2003.

by joyful alternative 2007-03-16 03:33AM | 0 recs
Re: A MyDD - Dailykos Generation Gap?

Hey from one older female who rarely reads DKOS to another....Solidarity!  I'm stunned though about the younger audience here. I always think about MyDD as having to do with the nuts and bolts of democracy, almost genetic research: identifying the success chromosome.  But I was an Edwards first voter, which is just so interesting....

by Shrink in SF 2007-03-16 05:10AM | 0 recs
Re: A MyDD - Dailykos Generation Gap?

Another aging female weighing in--man us menopausal chicks be messing with your demographics big-time.

However, I do need to say that good writing, reporting and political analysis (like great music) crosses all demographic boundaries. I now have a little shrine to Matt Stoller in my house and worship at it daily.

Asking me to choose between MyDD and Kos is like asking me which of my kids I love best. They're different animals. I love them all. MyDD, Kos, Atrios, Digby, Juan Cole, Talking Points are my first reading stops in the morning. But I also like Oricinus, Jesus General, Americablog, Firedoglake, Steve Gilliard, the Mahablog and a bunch of others.

To date myself hopelessly...."We Are Family, Get up Ev'rybody and Blog!!!

Oh come on! Y' all know it. Second verse. Here we go.

Living life is fun and we've just begun
To get our share of the world's delights
(HIGH!) high hopes we have for the future
And our goal's in sight
(WE!) no we don't get depressed
Here's what we call our golden rule
Have faith in you and the things you do
You won't go wrong
This is our (blogging) Jewel

All right, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have gone that far with the Sister Sledge thing.

As far as Obama vs. Edwards, I'll vote for either. I don't care. Just block Hillary, for God's sake.

by midwestmeg 2007-03-16 07:15AM | 0 recs
Re: A MyDD - Dailykos Generation Gap?

Great perspective here - and funny!

"I now have a little shrine to Matt Stoller in my house and worship at it daily." LOL!

"Asking me to choose between MyDD and Kos is like asking me which of my kids I love best."
Great sentiment, I agree completely.

"As far as Obama vs. Edwards, I'll vote for either. I don't care. Just block Hillary, for God's sake."

Also FULLY agree - either I would be very happy to have in the White House.

by jc 2007-03-16 08:46AM | 0 recs
Re: A MyDD - Dailykos Generation Gap?

As a 64-year-old female, I read both.  I read MyDD largely to find out what younger people are thinking, and for the nuts-and-bolts info.  I generally find it informative, albeit more clearly male in style.

I read the front pagers on Kos for news, but rarely the diaries.  Too many inane comments to wade through, too many comments period.

I think Chris is right that Obama (the non-Boomer) is more appealing to younger, more pragmatic voters.  Older voters also may be less willing to take a chance on a woman or Black candidate--just a hunch.  Personally I'd prefer Gore, but have given to both Edwards and Obama to help keep them going.  Either is ok with me, with the caveat that younger voters had better turn out if they really want him and what he stands for.

by Mimikatz 2007-03-16 08:59AM | 0 recs
Re: A MyDD - Dailykos Generation Gap?

Another woman chiming in.  I started out on DailyKos, but probably read MyDD more regularly than DK now.  

Two quick comments.

One is that Gore would be my first choice, but Edwards comes a close 2nd because of his emphasis on poverty and the two Americas.  I like Obama, but I'm sad to say that I no longer trust Hillary on a host of issues.  However, I think she would be far superior to anything the Republicans offer up, and I think anyone with progressive interests who doesn't vote for her if she's the nominee is crazy (or partying like it's 1999 again and the last six disastrous years never happened.)

Two is that something that MyDD does lack that some female readers may crave is the sense of community and intimate interaction between posters and commenters. It might not just be the lack of feminine voices on the front page that is affecting the demographics here at MyDD, but the interaction of the community which is much more cerebral, distant, and less interactive (look at how few comments most posts here generate compared to DK or Firedoglake or Eschaton.)  It is not just a matter of quantity, either, but the quality of those comments.  MyDD comments are, for the most part, fairly dry and impersonal, with relatively little emotion expressed and not much identity revealed.  

Now, to fly in the face of my last point, greetings, Mimikatz.  I've always read and enjoyed your observations here and elsewhere.


by katerina 2007-03-16 11:46AM | 0 recs
Re: A MyDD - Dailykos Generation Gap?

Again, I'm a 60+ female, but so far Obama is my favorite candidate.

I don't see MyDD as "male in style," and I didn't realize people here were so young until I saw Matt on C-SPAN. There isn't a lot of chatting for the sake of chatting here, or personal aggrandizement, or bashing for the sake of bashing.

by joyful alternative 2007-03-17 08:37AM | 0 recs
MyDD - Dailykos

I'm an old female, too.  I read MyDD daily and have for years.  I skim Kos occasionally (more during elections), typically reading only Markos's posts, seldom read a  diary and never read the comments.

I read MyDD because if anything is going on with the Democrats or any big news story, an intelligent post about it will be here within minutes.

by tex UnFairWitness 2007-03-16 04:12AM | 0 recs
A MyDD - Dailykos Generation Gap?

I don't really think the progressives have a candidate in the election yet.

I also think it is unfortunate that having women viewers is associated with becoming a boring establishement blog, which is what I think kos is.  This maybe a reflection of the fact that minorities and women are slower to get on the net than young white guys. This is not always the case, myleftwing and booman, are still pretty fresh.  Half the kos posters took lessons from Rahm and Bob Shrum and they appear to be boring establishment political operatives.

I admit I like the fact that mydd hasn't caught on.  It isn't tnrized.

by Dameocrat 2007-03-16 04:21AM | 0 recs
Generation Gap?

Heh. I just turned 49. I spend more time here. Then again, I can't remember if I voted in either poll.

by Michael Bersin 2007-03-16 04:43AM | 0 recs
I'm an older female, 42 and

This is my first stop in the morning unless TPM or FDL are deep into some controversy.

I love the commentary on the political process.  I think Matt Stoeller has some very insightful posts and really needs to write a book.  

I think that Dkos is more like an huge warehouse of ideas that touches broadly on many topics but doesn't really dig into the weeds like MyDD, FDL and TPM does.

by lisadawn82 2007-03-16 05:02AM | 0 recs
It's like Cheers

This makes perfect sense to me.  I'd also add that the dKos community drives youth traffic away, and maybe that's why folks are ending up here on MyDD.

I post almost exclusively about young voters and progressive politics.  Frequently I got either no response or a hostile response to my posts from the general community. It's just not a friendly place for a lot of young activists that don't conform to the community's view of what is important.

But here on MyDD, I always get a good reception - to the point that Jonathan and Chris have front-paged my writings.  This is just a much more receptive community.

As for the seriousness, that makes sense to me too.  It think a lot of Millennials are sick of the Boomers and their politics.  We're pragmatic and want to make a difference, and this seems like the place to do it.

by Mike Connery 2007-03-16 05:16AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

To me, the biggest difference between the two blogs is that MyDD is more wonkish, numbers and policy oriented, whereas DailyKos is more tribal and paranoid.

The age thing makes the most sense to me though.  Older Democrats get turned on by populism and economic fairness stuff, which is Edward's major shtick.  I think younger voters are a lot more indifferent to economic populism.

by fwiffo 2007-03-16 05:17AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

David Sirota isn't a populist.  Surely this is not the dividing line.  

by Dameocrat 2007-03-16 05:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

He is doing an overal generalization.  There will be things on both sites that don't fit into the Generalization, but the majority seems too.

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 08:02AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

Why are younger voters indifferent to economic populism?  Still all think you'll strike it rich?  It would seem to me that as mobility in America is reduced, younger people would be the most hurt.  

There are actually 3 generations here--Boomers born ~1945-1963, Gen X born ~1964-1982 and Millenials, born ~1983-2001.  Plus a few of us holdovers from the Silent Generation, born ~1925-1944.

by Mimikatz 2007-03-16 09:08AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

They know this.  The person was speaking for himself/herself.  millenials are the source of the antiglobalization movement, and they are the people most at risk in a world of outsourcing.  This is why I think Obama will go downhill with them if he doesn't distance himself from the "Hamilton Project" pronto.  However, I am not committed to Edwards either.  I am in the uncommitted category. I am skeptical of all of them until they give me a reason not to be.  Edwards still has a record of supporting the IWR, and Obama doesn't.

by Dameocrat 2007-03-16 09:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

I don't think we're indifferent to it at all. I do think nobody's cast economic populism in terms that address our specific needs at this point in time. Come talk to us about student loans, tuition, entry-level jobs, and housing costs, and you'll have a very attentive audience.

by eugene 2007-03-16 09:32AM | 0 recs
millenials xers and populism

They know this.  The person was speaking for himself/herself.  millenials are the source of the antiglobalization movement, and they are the people most at risk in a world of outsourcing.  This is why I think Obama will go downhill with them if he doesn't distance himself from the "Hamilton Project" pronto.  However, I am not committed to Edwards either.  I am in the uncommitted category. I am skeptical of all of them until they give me a reason not to be.  Edwards still has a record of supporting the IWR, and Obama doesn't.

by Dameocrat 2007-03-16 09:33AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

Your dates are a little off for the generations according to a lot of accounts... According to American Demographics Gen Y or the millenials start in 1976... Howe and Strauss use 1982, but most market research firms use 1978 to 2000 as millenials or Gen Y...  

Demographics by generation

Cohort                         Year of birth
WWI                             1922 to 1927
Post-war/The Great Depression   1928 to 1941
Baby Boomers                    1942 to 1965
Generation X                    1966 to 1977
Generation Y/Millenials         1978 to 2000

Of course all of it is in dispute... there is a Generation Jones between X and Boomers according to some researchers... the Millenials can further be split up...  Its interesting.

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 09:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

Boomers start in 1946, as those of us born in 1945 well know. The class behind me in school was always more than twice as big, and remedial funding efforts always came too late to fix the 60-kid classes and half-day sessions they caused. Etc.

by joyful alternative 2007-03-17 08:49AM | 0 recs
Obama is better of the two

This is a referendum on Obama; Barack is a stronger candidate than Edwards  - myDD'ers just spend more time vetting their candidate. Once you get past the appearances, with Edwards, you still have someone who got their butt kicked by Dick Cheney in a debate. How is it possible to get your butt kicked by a guy who can't even stop from shooting his own friends in the face on hunting trips?

Still, kudos to Edwards for standing up to Fox news. At this moment Mydd poll reflects my sentiments exactly - its obama by just a whisker over here.

by heyAnita 2007-03-16 05:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama is better of the two

Edwards didn't get his ass kicked. He just wasn't the rabid attack dog that you wanted him to be. Cheneys negeatives were already huge and Edward's where low. There was nothing for Edwards to gain by ripping into Cheney - Cheney's negeatives couldn't go much lower, but it would have hurt Edwards' negeatives a lot more.

It was a good debate and he conducted himself well.

by Quinton 2007-03-16 07:17AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama is better of the two

Unfortunately, THe gop created the CHeney kicked Edwards ass message in the media... and untrue that it was... it is the opinion that stuck with a lot of people.

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 08:03AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama is better of the two

Anybody who lies in the debate, loses by default.

by rbrianj 2007-03-16 11:34AM | 0 recs
Comparing results

Not only is that a large, fifteen point gap between the two websites

How do you arrive at this number? I obviously don't know what's being compared. Thanks.

by Books Alive 2007-03-16 05:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Comparing results

At dailykos, Edwards has a 12 point lead, but at MyDD Obama has a 3 point lead -- this is a 15 point swing in the opposite direction.

by Oly 2007-03-16 07:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Comparing results

OK, thanks.

by Books Alive 2007-03-16 07:58AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

oddly, I prefer myDD to DK, even though I fit the profile of an older male (33) who prefers Edwards. However I would support Obama in a heartbeat if he just started using his bully pulpit more aggressively in term sof policy. Perhaps it is because I am older that Obamas highfalutin rhetoric doesnt impress me and I want to see results; Edwards has delivered and to me is the more genuine progressive.

by azizhp 2007-03-16 05:25AM | 0 recs
How Does This Affect the Ground Game?

If the Obama campaign becomes overly reliant on young people to carry the ball on the ground during the primaries, I suspect that he will underperform his poll numbers when his actual results come in.

I don't have any facts to back up that suspicion, but I just wanted to toss it out there for people to think about, support, or debunk.  And I make no comment as to why it might be so.

by Anthony de Jesus 2007-03-16 05:50AM | 0 recs
Re: How Does This Affect the Ground Game?

I think you're right.  Dean's support in 04 was strong with the younger voters, but in no state did he perform as well as polls said he should.  The young people simply didn't turn out, and in Iowa when they did turn out many of them were confused by not having been to a caucus before.

by Vox Populi 2007-03-16 05:54AM | 0 recs
Re: How Does This Affect the Ground Game?

I think that is part of the plan with the My.BarackObama.com.  MArch 31, they are starting to push the organization with the campaign.  THe plan appears to use these tools to try and increase youth turnout.  Whether it works remains to be seen.  If it does and Obama still doesn't win, the same mechanisms would help us in the general.  And if Obama is not the nom and is the VP, I think we will see some great turnout in the general for us.

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 08:07AM | 0 recs
Re: How Does This Affect the Ground Game?

You are probably right, but I don't think to the extent that many people will assume.  

We'll see in a year, I guess.  But I suspect that a lot of the youth doubters will be very surprised, and many of the overly exuberant youth boosters will be proved slightly wrong.

by Mike Connery 2007-03-16 06:04AM | 0 recs
Dailykos Generation Gap?

I'm 24 and a solid Edwards supporter.  I don't read DailyKos and love MyDD.

I think that Obama has younger supporters can be a detriment to him.  Young people simply don't turn out in the numbers older voters do.  Add in the confusion of a caucus, and you're setting yourself up for another Dean 2004.

I think part of Obama's problem is he moves like an iceberg.  He's offered few policy specifics, and is slow to react to things (see the recent Fox debate and "is homosexuality immoral" for reference).  He talks in Senate-ese more than he should, which means his speeches are either hit or miss.  People have such high expectations of his rhetoric, and then they hear what amounts to a lecture when they want things laid out simply, and want more red meat.

Otherwise Obama is a good candidate, and if Clark doesn't enter is my number two choice in this race at the moment.

by Vox Populi 2007-03-16 05:52AM | 0 recs
Re: Dailykos Generation Gap?

It is early though.  I think you will see the policy specifics later on closer to the primaries... right now is about getting the donations and building organization and infrastructure.  

The Fox debate was a gaffe... the pace remarks can ultimately be chalked up to a gaffe (given the way some people ran with it, even if the facts were a little murkey) although his record and thoughts on gay rights are pretty well known and consistent.

I disagree with your Senate-Ese statement... his speeches do not come off that way to me, but that is a matter of opinion.  

We will see with youth turnout.... it seems like the campaign is pushing to help increase that turnout.  Maybe they or the state or Democrats need to run a workshop in the caucus states so first timers know what the hell to do.  It wil be interesting to see the results.

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 08:15AM | 0 recs
Obama the Law Professor

Obviously, the issue of Obama's rhetorical style and delivery is not what this diary is about, and so I don't really want to invite a long discussion about it here.  Nevertheless, having seen at least a dozen Obama speeches now (including the one at the 2004 convention in person), I confess, I am fascinated by this particular issue.  

I do not think I would characterize Obama's problematic speaking characteristics as Senate-ese. (That applies in spades to Hillary Clinton's problems in this department.)  Instead, I see the law professor in Obama come out every so often.  I actually think that when Obama puts himself on autopilot (which happens to all candidates), he reverts back to his law professor personna. I don't mind it at all.  In fact, I like listening to a good law professor.  But then again, I know that certain audiences will scratch their heads when listening to this style of speech. (See, for example, Obama's recent speech to the firefighters union.)

To be clear, I could both praise and critique Clinton and Edwards' speaking styles (and autopilot styles) as well.  It is my sense that all three have strengths and weaknesses in this area. Heck, I should probably write a diary on it.  :)

by Demo37 2007-03-16 10:37AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama the Law Professor

I can see that... He gets into professor lecture mode... that is a fair statement.

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 01:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Dailykos Generation Gap?

As much as it bothers me about Obama and "specifics", he really doesn't need to say anything but the obvious right now. He is still in his honeymoon stage. The press is being quite generous to him at the moment. All he needs to do is just wait and see. Wait for his poll numbers to settle down and then decide what to do next.

by rbrianj 2007-03-16 11:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

Regarding the comparison of dkos and mydd populations:

Being seriously middle-aged, I am supposed to be over at dkos. <g> But I agree with some of the other comments that what draws me here is not the age of the folks in one community or the other.

It's about the content. Mydd is nuts-and-bolts and wonky all the time. That's what I want. I simply don't care about the "Yeah that's right" cheerleading that is rampant at dkos. I want to talk about actions and analysis that makes sense of what is happening in today's politics.

Keep up the good work.

by KB 2007-03-16 05:56AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

Second, Dailykos has a much higher percentage of women readers than does MyDD.

that surprises me as I would have thought it would be the reverse.

I suspect you are correct, it is a question of voice

by Alice Marshall 2007-03-16 05:59AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

Exactly. I prefer MYDD's gender neutrality.

by misscee 2007-03-16 07:02AM | 0 recs
A MyDD - Dailykos Generation Gap?

I read both blogs and voted in both polls. I voted for Obama on MyDD and for Edwards on Kos. The reason Obama lost my Kos vote was his lack of a statement on the bigot, Gen. Pace.

by Marq 2007-03-16 06:10AM | 0 recs
Re: A MyDD - Dailykos Generation Gap?

See this is what makes no sense to me.  If indeed Obama did make a gaffe on the newsday "interview" (for lack of a betterword)... he did comeout with a statement clarifying that night.  Obama also has an exceptional public record of support for gay rights and equality.  The Pace thing may have been a screw up (I still think Thrush was mistaken that Obama was answering his question), but Obama in those statements NEVER said homosexuality was immoral or it was bad.  He has always supported Gay Rights as well and he goes to a UCC church which participates in the Open and Affirming program... which means that they are a diverse church body that welcomes ALL people regardless of gender, color, sexual orientation, etc.  The UCC is also the only national church who supports gay marriage.

GIven the long body of evidence on his feelings on gay rights, I don't understand how someone can change their opinion of who they are supporting based on one gaffed statement.  In this long of a process, all candidates will make mistakes.  Edwards has made some, Obama has made some.  Either your support is soft for the two (meaning you liek both and don't have hard support for one over the other) or... well I just don't know.  As I said it makes little sense to me.  

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 08:27AM | 0 recs
Re: A MyDD - Dailykos Generation Gap?
To me it seems like the problem was the manner of his answer. He shouldn't have needed to issue a clarification, as he should just have explicitly said that he thought Pace was wrong. His rather faltering response is worrying if it's going to be a precedent to how he'll respond to future Republican smears.
by Englishlefty 2007-03-16 11:44AM | 0 recs
Re: A MyDD - Dailykos Generation Gap?

I guess I'd be more worried about it if he had said it on Meet the Press or in a formal interview... this was almost a man on the street type interview after the Fire Fighters speech... It might have been a mistake, it might have been Thrush making more of it than it is... but this isn't to be feared... HRC's response was more worrying to me as a Democrat since hers was in a more formalized setting.  As I said, mistakes happen but this is far different than saying it in a formal interview.

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 01:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Age Gap

That MyDD would be populated by a younger crowd is quite surprising, but I take your analysis to suggest that it's not college kids but instead young-ish professionals and activists; that makes some sense. DailyKos, because of its scale, looks more like the regular offline, Democratic rank-and-file (which is largely middle-aged and female). My sense of Edwards's strength lay in his communication style which places a premium on gut-level emotional appeals and rhetoric, whereas Obama tends to go for a more ministerial -- intellectual-cum-spiritual -- approach.

by blueflorida 2007-03-16 06:12AM | 0 recs
Edwards is the one!!!

I like MyDD and check it out all day, my job allows me to do this, i'm so lucky; but Kos is cool too. What i prefer about MyDD is the graphic interface, it's easier to use and not so jumbled as Kos is. Also, i'm a phila boy(geezer over 50) and there is a phila feeling about this site, not sure why i feel that way.

by jfoster 2007-03-16 06:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards is the one!!!

Because Chris is from Philly... He does post a lot on local Philly politics.  So there is definately that feel on here at times.

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 08:29AM | 0 recs
Ha ha ha!

I'm sorry, but this just tickled my funny bone. Because I'm an older woman who reads both sites daily... and likes both Edwards and Obama. :-D

But seriously, the main difference in the 'feel' of the two sites for me is actually the comments. There are always fewer comments on MyDD posts and most of them are rather weighty, so I tend not to comment here unless I think I have something really significant to add, and never respond to other comments. On DKos, I would never have felt apologetic about posting a flip comment about my age and presidential indecision. Here, I'm still not sure whether I'm actually going to press "post" on such a fluffy comment. Guess I'll bite the bullet.

by tjekanefir 2007-03-16 06:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Ha ha ha!

Thanks for wading in!

by Matt Stoller 2007-03-16 06:34AM | 0 recs
I really wish you would!

Speaking absolutely selfishly, I find the most valuable part of being round here when I do get challenged (nicely!), and have to try and explain my reasoning.

Because, quite often, the reasoning is faulty, or I've misunderstood the facts or the law or whatever - and the last thing I want to do is to carry on demonstrating my ignorance!

Being a total amateur in these things, that's really been the only way I've learnt: getting my 'knowledge' challenged, and quite often finding that I've been wrong all along.

So - I'd say, if you've got a point or query, make it. No one will be snippy or condescending.

Or if they are, I'll come along and beat them up for you!

by skeptic06 2007-03-16 07:07AM | 0 recs
Re: Ha ha ha!

I agree about the comments.  I'm 38, who knew I was an older woman, and my main 3 are Eschaton, MyDD, and DK.  I've also been reading Matt Yglesias.  I find that the comments section at Atrios is geared towards his regulars, who seem to be very good(and funny) online friends, so I sometimes feel awkward chiming in with a comment.  DK makes me feel like I'm shouting to get my comment heard based on the sheer volume.  Here you can read and contribute to the comments, but I do feel compelled to rewrite some of my smart-assish comments also.

by Kingstongirl 2007-03-16 04:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama:

The fact that Edwards won here only demonstrates how out of touch this blog is with everyone else.

Dkos only slightly less.

by Liberal Avenger 2007-03-16 06:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama:

Edwards didn't win here.  

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 08:30AM | 0 recs
I prefer MyDD because...

It focuses more on the campaigns, tactics and strategy as opposed to all those icky "issues" they talk about on dailykos.  

For the record I am a white, male, under 25, political professional, but an Edwards supporter.  So I buck the trend--sort of.

by KickinIt 2007-03-16 06:41AM | 0 recs
alternative theories

Just wondering. Did you consider:

1) Poll stuffing on DKos? Maybe the Edwards people organized something.

2) Timing. DKos poll came out when Obama criticism  for his response to Pace's "immoral homosexual" comments was at its peak and after Edwards got kudos for his response.

by demondeac 2007-03-16 06:42AM | 0 recs
Re: alternative theories

As for poll stuffing it's been my understanding that supports of a number of the canidates have been accused of doing that. Obama is quite popular online so if stuffing went on I think it's logical to assume that his supporters would have held their own against Edwards supporters (and others).

The ratio of support seemed to stay about the same from fairly early on through until the last time I checked it when there was 20,000 votes too.

I do think timing is key. Edwards has been making some good moves and getting good press (in the blogsphere and in the msm) and Obama had a fumble or two. I also think that perhaps at least among the highly informed netroots base Obama's shine is starting to come off. He's still talking in platitudes and vagueries and Edwards isn't.

During the last round on the Iraq resolution in the senate Obama and Clinton both voted for the Gregg amendment saying they won't get off funding for the troops. Sure, I know it's a gotcha amendment, but still. He's supposed to be showing he can lead and you can't do that from the back.

by Quinton 2007-03-16 07:39AM | 0 recs
Re: alternative theories

Stuffing usually isn't a lot of people... it is only a few.

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 08:31AM | 0 recs
Result NOT due to Demographics

Although the polls were taken within a week of each other, this last week Edwards was out front on the Fox debate issue and Obama gave his pathetic morality non-answer answer within 24 hours of Kos poll.  I voted for Obama on the MyDD poll, and switched to Edwards on Kos yesterday.

In other words, between the time of the two polls, Edwards had a good week, and Obama a bad week.

Last question, are Obama and Edwards going after the same voters amongst all Dems, or just the netroot Dems?

by magster 2007-03-16 06:46AM | 0 recs
Edwards and demographics

I totally agree that Edwards appeals to women more. Whenever I see people assume that Clinton will win huge among women, I am surprised. Not only do women like John Edwards, they absolutely love Elizabeth Edwards. Just yesterday I was walking my dog and ran into a woman in my precinct who was one of my key Kerry supporters last time around. She doesn't like Clinton and is leaning toward Edwards.

As for the candidates and age groups, obviously Obama seems to have a lot of appeal among the under-30 set. I think a lot of older voters are interested, but less enthralled.

In my experience as a precinct captain in 2003/2004, Edwards tended to do really well among voters in their 30s and 40s. Kerry seemed to do a little better among voters over 50.

There were plenty of exceptions, but this was the case in my precinct and others around me. There were tons of undecideds between Kerry and Edwards in the final week, and most of the ones I knew under the age of 50 went to Edwards (in my precinct and elsewhere in the Des Moines area).

In the suburban Des Moines precincts with a lot of empty nesters, like mine, Kerry got more delegates than Edwards. In the ones with more young families, Edwards got more delegates than Kerry.

Since the 30-49 age group is a very important swing demographic (my husband calls them the aging Reaganjugen), I think Edwards would be a great candidate at the top of the ticket.

by desmoinesdem 2007-03-16 06:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and demographics

I would agree that Edward has a lot of appeal among Women... I saw a feminist saying he would be the first woman president... a dubious title but I understand her point.  

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 08:33AM | 0 recs
The gender thing

I'd love to see someone do a Ph D anthropology thesis comparing and contrasting the DKos and MyDD communities.

Because I'm far from clear that gender is the main explanation for the differences between the two sites.

As far as the FP stuff is concerned, one could, I suppose, reasonably easily set up lab-based tests to try and discover whether the writing could be tagged for gender.

I'd guess not.

I do note, for instance, that Nancy's stuff has fitted right in here in terms of style as well as content - the style is obviously a bit different from the guys', but not so much that it doesn't blend.

On the other hand - I am so glad we don't get hung up on these issues over here.

I'm not sure whether that feeling is masculine, feminine - or just sensible.

by skeptic06 2007-03-16 07:24AM | 0 recs
Are younger folks more moderate?

I'm a baby boomer and I read both.

Daily Kos is bigger.  I enjoy Chris' opinions the most.  Age is not important to me.  

One thing that may be reflected in this generation gap is that older Democrats on blogs tend to be leftist because their political consciousness were formed by the civil rights and opposition to the Vietnam war.

Many of us see John Edwards as significantly to the left of Obama.  Since our cores are left, we support John Edwards.

I wanted to support Obama, but he is just too moderate for me on key issues, like the war in Iraq.  

Younger folks may be more conservative than baby boomers on Democratic blogs.

by littafi 2007-03-16 07:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Are younger folks more moderate?

Absolutely - couldn't agree more!  We also have the benefit of hindsight and are not so easily taken in by charisma (after all, we've been there, haven't we?)  I'm really not comfortable with Obama's stances on many issues, just as I am not comfortable with Hillary's.  I really do want to like him - he's young, smart, and very personable.  I just can't get behind him with his careful, calculated statements and, in my opinion, his pandering to the "faith-based" community, which to me rings false.

by CarolSoprano 2007-03-16 07:42AM | 0 recs
Re: Are younger folks more moderate?

Carol, Obama does NOT pander to faith-based community.  If you are saying that, you don't know the man or much about him.  Pandering would be him having no or little religous experience and then all of a sudden preaching from the rooftops.  This is not Obama at all... I am assuming you made that comment because you don't know enough about his history to know that calling him a panderer on that issue is laughable and conflicts with reality.

Obama is very spiritual.  He is a strong Progressive Christian and a member of the UCC.  The UCC is the only national church to support Gay marriage and equal rights for gays.  We do NOT believe in a literal interpretation of the bible the way the Christian right does.  We follow an alegorical interpretation.  His Chicago church is open and affirming (a UCC program) which means that they accept anyyone into their church who is accepting of everyone.  He doesn't hide his faith... he is proud of his spirituality and his belief in God.  Just like Martin Luther King, Jr, just like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, he feels that many of the progressive ideals he holds are mandates from God... help the poor, equal rights, etc.  

Some of his statements are careful, I agree... I agree with Robliberal though that this is inexperience... but he does not pander to the faith-based community... he is a proud memeber of the the progressive Christian Left.  

If you want to understand more, you might check out...


This will give you an idea n Obama's religious beliefs.

If you don't want to support Obama, that's cool.  But please don't say he panders to the Faith-based community.  This is just plain wrong, isn't supported by the facts and is insulting to him and his supporters.


by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 09:16AM | 0 recs
Re: Are younger folks more moderate?

I am fully aware of what the UCC church is all about and admire the church and Obama very much (I am a UU myself but really like what the UCC stands for ...) But I also have trouble with some of Obama's statements such as "Democrats must court evangelicals" and speeches he has given to that effect.  To me, they come across as preachy and condescending to us "heathens" out there and I believe it is pandering.  Just because someone has a deeply-held belief in God does not mean they can't pander to the more extreme elements of their faith.  I stand by my statements ... I think he's trying a little too hard to court the evangelical vote, which I think is a waste of his time given their worldview and, frankly, a turn-off to the more "secular" progressives like me.

To be honest, I really do want to support Obama, and I was as mesmerized as anyone else by his keynote speech in 2004.  It just isn't happening for me, though, and his courting of evangelicals, however well-intentioned, is a problem for me.

by CarolSoprano 2007-03-16 11:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Are younger folks more moderate?

No it is part of his call to unity.  Maybe you don't get that, but thats what it is.  He also said in the same speech, that leaders on the religious right need to recognize the importance of the seperation of church and state.  If he was pandering he would NEVER have made that comment.

And for the record, Obama never said Democrats Must Court Evangelicals.  That was the Washington Posts Headline, not a direct quote.  Obama said that we must "acknowledge the power of faith in the lives of the American people".  He also said "we cannot abandon the field of religious discourse. ... In other words, if we don't reach out to evangelical Christians and other religious Americans and tell them what we stand for, Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons will continue to hold sway."  What he is calling for is to reach out the rank and file...   They follow the hate mongering of the Falwells and Robertsons, not the world changing morality of a Martin Luther King Jr, an extremely religous man.  Helping the poor, loving your fellow man are some of the main teachings of Jesus Christ.  Yet, the far right wing, guys like Falwell and Robertsons pervert that maessage and make it about tamping down what they fear.  If the rank and file have no one reaching out to them on one side, they will go to the only side talking to them.  AND that is a reason we are in some of the mess we are in.  A President is not just the president of the people he or she agrees with... he is a President of ALL the people in the United States.  Obama understands this, Dean understands this and from some of his speeches and actions throughout his career Edwards understand this.

Again its the black and white view of the world... Evangelicals and Christians in general are not black and white, they are shades of grey.  Not all evangelicals are conservatives... not all conservatives are far right wingnut theocons.  I know evangelicals who support abortion rights.  I know some progressive christians who are against the current openness with abortions.  The spectrum is not one end or the other... there are many stops on the way.

I think you might not understand what pandering really is and that is your confusion on the subject.  Trying to Appeal to other groups is not pandering.  If Obama was pandering, he would eb calling for bills that played to the Evangelicals beliefs... such as calling for Gay Marriage amendments and Abortion Amendments.  THAT is pandering... What Bush did in 2004 WAS PANDERING!

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 01:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Are younger folks more moderate?

I'm not sure I need to be lectured about Christianity and the teachings of Jesus Christ.  You don't know me so you know nothing of my faith, my beliefs, or my perceived "black and white" worldview.  I am entitled to my opinion, and in my opinion Obama is courting evangelicals.  You know as well as I do that "evangelical" is a loaded word in this political climate and he seems to be implying that he will be going after the very same "values voters" that make up a good deal of the Republican base.  That's fine - he is certainly welcome to do that and if he can change a few folks' minds, wonderful.  However, he also runs the risk of alienating people in his own party with his statements and preaching (I can't be the only Democrat who is troubled by this issue), and I'm not sure he's going to be all that successful.  And if this was the only thing that troubled me I could get past it, but it's not.  As I said before, I will certainly vote for him if he wins the primary, but I'm not entirely comfortable with him and like Edwards better.

by CarolSoprano 2007-03-16 02:07PM | 0 recs
Obama and Religion

I think, in a sense, you are both correct.  When it comes to mixing politics with religion, what is appropriate to one person, can be too much (or pandering) to another.  

Every political speech starts as a blank piece of paper.  The speaker then fills in that blank paper, choosing what to say, and how to say it.  In terms of including religion in your speech, how many religious phrases and references are appropriate?  Should these phrases be in the beginning of the speech, throughout the speech, or simply at the end, with a perfunctory "God bless you all" conclusion?  

This issue has been on my mind of late.  I recently watched Obama's speech in Selma, then Hillary Clinton's speech in Selma, then Edwards' Beliefnet interview.  I was struck with how Obama, Clinton and Edwards have the ability, if they so wish, to really bring the religion.  On the one hand, I can see the positives in this.  On the other hand, my goodness, if the MSM were to "front page" some of the religious issues found in these speeches, I imagine the country might find itself pondering potentially fractious religious questions.  Is Obama more like Moses, or Joshua?  What does it mean for a Methodist to speak in a Baptist church?  What would Jesus say about America today?  Very interesting questions, but potentially very fractious.  :)

by Demo37 2007-03-16 06:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Are younger folks more moderate?

One more comment - the Unitarian Universalist church is also a national church and we too believe in Gay marriage and equal rights for gays and all Americans.  Just because the UU isn't "biblically-based" doesn't mean it isn't a national church.  And, actually, the Episcopal Church U.S.A. is in favor of gay marriage and gay rights as well:

http://www.integrityusa.org/gc2003/Origi nalResolutions/C005%20Rites%20Rites%20fo r%20Blessing%20and%20Supporting%20Commit ted%20Relationships.htm

(although this official stance is causing quite a rift within the Episcopal Church right now).  Anyway, thankfully there are progressive churches in this country; UCC is only one of several who are leading the charge for equality for all Americans.

by CarolSoprano 2007-03-16 11:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Are younger folks more moderate?

My mistake... I was unaware that either had.  UCC was the first to do it and I did not know that the UU or Episcopal had...  ANd yes I admire the UU and almost joined one... I thought the UCC had a stronger spiritual connection, plus the local church I go to is very left wing with a large gay and lesbian contingent and various age groups (unfortunately not a lot of diversity due to our area but we are working on it).  Thanks for the update.  

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 01:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Are younger folks more moderate?

I have to disagree with you again here.  UCC is not the first church to recognize gay rights and gay marriage.  I believe they only passed a resolution affirming equal rights for all couples in 2005 - the UU has officially supported gay marriage since 1996 (and has been performing marriage services since 1984).  You might want to qualify that by saying that the UCC is the first major Christian denomination to sanction gay marriage, but it's not the first American church to do so (although UU has its roots in Protestantism).  I'm not minimizing the UCC's stance - it's extraordinarily courageous and principled and I salute any Christian church that truly practices was Jesus Christ taught.  I just want to set the record straight because UU's are constantly marginalized and dismissed as "not really a church".

by CarolSoprano 2007-03-16 01:58PM | 0 recs
Old folks: just too darn smart for charisma?

Yes, older people prefer Edwards because they're too smart to get taken in by charisma. Because Edwards in 2008 is all sensible policy positions and not in any way driven by charisma and looks, even though he somehow came in second place in 2004 with little else than those two things.  And older people, having learned from our considerable history of electoral failures when we nominate charismatic politicians like Bill Clinton, and our considerable history of electoral success when we nominate sensible technocrats who couldn't charm their way out of a paper bag, like Dukakis and Kerry, have decided that we should totally nominate someone who puts out very exciting policy papers and is otherwise unremarkable.</sarcasm>

That's mostly crap.  I would suggest that Edwards strikes older people as more authentic and compelling than Obama, while Obama strikes younger people as more authentic and compelling than Edwards.  You're not too smart for charisma, you just get taken in by a different brand.

I can only offer anecdotal support and some armchair sociology, but most politically engaged young people (including myself) I've talked to about Edwards agree that he feels like he's full of shit most of the time (the one exception to springs to my mind happens to also be from the south, which may be something).  I'm not saying he IS, I'm saying that his mannerisms feel false to my friends and me.  On the other hand, the people who say that Obama feels like a stuffed shirt are generally older.  I think it's probably some sort of generational disconnect between language, hairstyle and other mannerisms.

(I think that when I'm being charitable and balanced.  Other times I just think that the older people are being foolish and blinded by age.  But when I'm not making an effort towards fairness or unfairness, I'm somewhere in between.  If Edwards could give me his constitutional theory and make me believe that he meant it and arrived at it by actually thinking rather than reading off the Democratic Playbook, I'd consider changing my mind. (And yes, I'm aware that's kind of stacking the deck in favor of the former Con. Law professor, but it's something I, personally, care about; if you don't like it, you can find a trial lawyer and sue me.))

by notapipe 2007-03-16 12:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Old folks: just too darn smart for charisma?

Now, don't misinterpret my words.  I didn't say we were too "smart" to be taken in by charisma, just that we weren't easily taken in by it (maybe we're more cautious and cynical?)  Funny, because in my less "charitable" moments I think young people are being foolish and blinded by youth.

Both Edwards and Obama display charisma - you're right, in different ways - but Obama has that "rock star", media darling quality about him that to me feels forced and inauthentic.  I don't find him to be a "stuffed shirt" (what's your implication there - that we're not sophisticated enough for his message?)  I just find him condescending and preachy at times, and I find some of his statements puzzling and troubling.  Certainly he's drawing huge crowds, so obviously he's saying things that people are responding positively to.  If he wins the nomination, I will have no problem voting for him (I will vote for Hillary if she wins the nomination, but it won't be a pleasant experience).  

I believe that Edwards is the better candidate, is saying the right things, has a wonderful message regarding the social and economic disparities in this country, and is better suited to govern.  My dream ticket right now would be Edwards/Obama (well, actually, it would be Gore/Edwards, but that's another story) - Edwards for 8 years, Obama for 8.  

by CarolSoprano 2007-03-16 01:46PM | 0 recs
Re: Are younger folks more moderate?

I interpret Kos as being more right wing.  I don't see much if any concern for labor issues over there, and there are a lot more Rahm defenders.  Not to mention that the place is policed by people who tend to defend conservative dems.  The last harrah bloggers are the poobahs over there and they are by and large defenders of all things dlc.

In edition 30-40 somethings are not more shaped by the politics of the 60s then then 20-30 are.  That is more for those who are 45+.

by Dameocrat 2007-03-16 07:52AM | 0 recs
Re: Are younger folks more moderate?

Obama is not a moderate on Iraq... all facts point to him be very progressive on the war... unless you feel that anyone whose opinion is not for complete defunding (and risk Bush screwing the troops over by sending them out with little funding)  is moderate... that really isn't an accurate account of the political spectrum....   Obama might not support defunding, but he is for a hard time table... that is a progressive viewpoint... its just not as far left as defunding... but if that is your marker on who is progressive, than there is but a small minority of Demorcrats who are progressives.  I think this doesn't reflect the reality of the situation, but it does explain your position.  Just remember though, just because a viewpoint doesn't agree with yours doesn't automatically make that opinion moderate or conservative... the political spectrum is a long one.  Obama is not as far left on the war as Edwards is at this point, but to say his view point is moderate just doesn't support the facts.

Younger folks are not more conservative... not even close.  We just view the world differently.  It seems like most boomers who grew up in the civil rights era, seem to have a black and white view point of the world and politics(which seems to be supported by your statements that Obama is moderate on the war)... there are of course some millenials who have his view point as well(just as some boomers don't subscribe to the black and white viewpoint), they do seem to be a minority though... I always did wonder if those millenials had activist boomer parents but that would be a sociology study for another day.  

Most of the millenials tend to not see the world in black and white... there isn't just one right and wrong answer.  The world is gray and there are several right answers and many wrong ones as well.  The Boomers still seem to be fighting the culture wars, and on both sides of the boomer struggle (Progressive and COnservative), there seems to be an Us and Them mentality.

Having not grown up in that era, the Millenials don't really have that mentality.  The partisan kill the other side politics don't appeal to a good majority of us... which is why I think so many millenials HATE Bush... he is the epitomy of this style of politics.  They (we) also don't want the DLC style, capitulate to most things to get a pittance of a deal.  The boomers appear to feel that they can win the fight in the current dynamics and just need someone who, like Bush, will use the Bully pulpit... it appears Edwards will do this, which is why I think he appeals to the boomers and those millenials (and Gen Xers) who who feel that the fight has to be fought on the same grounds and with the same rules that they were in the 60's and over the last 40 years.  Most millenials feel that given the lack of real progress that has happened since the Reagan years, that fighting on the same grounds and with the same rules doesn't work.  We want to achieve the same issues... in fact feel entitled to those rights.. such as universal healthcare, cheaper college, etc... but feel that only by changing the playing field and changing the rules will we achieve this.  This is why Obama appeals to the younger generation so much... the fact that he doesn't subscribe to the same rules that have been used the last 40 years, seems to be why many of the more activist older crowd are not enamored by him.

This is of course just my opinion.  Some will disagree and that's cool.  But it makes a lot of sense.  

Either way an Obama/Edwards or Edwards/Obama ticket would be a strong one.

This is all opinion of course and I am sure some will disagree.  But

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 09:03AM | 0 recs
Re: Are younger folks more moderate?


Your assessment of Obama's support among Millennials seems to make sense - it's not that we're moderates and centrists, but he instead represents a shift away from the form of politics that dominated American life from 1968 to 2004.

by eugene 2007-03-16 09:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Are younger folks more moderate?

It took me a LONG LONG time to figure understand this with the Boomers and the older Gen Xers.  Neither way is wrong, just different ways of looking and doing things... I for one just feel Obama's way will be the way of the future especially as the boomers age and leave politics.

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 09:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Are younger folks more moderate?

Perhaps. I think Obama is wrong to downplay the importance of ideology, but what I do think he, and Edwards as well, are instinctively feeling out is the possibility of rebuilding a New Deal coalition - putting together a cross-class, cross-racial coalition to go after wealth and power.

Hillary doesn't see this at all, as she's still locked in a 1992 political mindset. Edwards straddles both the '90s and the '00s politics, which I think makes him a potentially unifying figure. If Obama can flesh out his economic vision more clearly, then he could really crystallize something transformative.

by eugene 2007-03-16 10:41AM | 0 recs
Re: Are younger folks more moderate?

Well see.  I think Obama's generational argument is directed to the Clintons, but they never were left.  Liberals, perhaps, when it was cool.  Obama is 45, but he does try to appeal to those younger than him on generational grounds.  

You may be right, but since I think conflict is inherent in the system, I'll be surpised.

My daughter is in college and she tells me most college students are fairly moderate.  She sees them as more verbally left than they actually are, but that may just be her view.  

Both you and Eugene make interesting points.  Those who's political consciousnesses were formed during the struggle agaisnt the Vietnam War are amazed at the lack of college activism against the Iraq war now.  But I think we romanticize -- there was a draft then, and the possibility of being sent to Nam gave folks a sense of urgency that does not exist now.    

People also forget that the "baby boomers" are a media creation.  The left was a small minority in the 1960s and 70s, as was the counterculture.  

Your generation is much better on gay rights.  My daughter thinks nothing of having gay friends.  Now she was raised that way, but I think her friends also are good on that.

No generation is one way or another.  You will have your Young Republicans as well.

And in 30 years, someone will be saying,"a new generation is here that will change everything," just as we said.   As Eugene said, the leftista of the 30s were criticized by the leftist of the 60s, etc.

And so it will go.  So long as there is class oppression, there will be a left.  Unfortunately, that may be a long time.

by littafi 2007-03-16 10:57AM | 0 recs
Re: Are younger folks more moderate?

That wasn't Obama's argument... He has hinted but never fully on said anything like what I said... The statement above was all my opinion on the subject.

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 01:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Are younger folks more moderate?

I'm giving you a 3 for this... outstanding post!

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 01:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Are younger folks more moderate?

Thanks, Yitbos.

by littafi 2007-03-16 02:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Are younger folks more moderate?

This is very well thought out and interesting.  I would like to know, though, how you feel that Obama would do things differently?  I just don't see it, especially after his missteps lately with Gen. Pace's statement and his waffling on troop withdrawal (taking somewhat the same stance as Hillary, that he might leave a small ground force in Iraq).  

You're right - I do see things differently than my millenial children, especially when it comes to social and cultural issues.  We "boomers" are disheartened with how little things have changed since the 60's, how much racial and economic inequality still exists in this country, and how horribly wrong is the direction this country is headed.  

There are some issues that are black and white - the lack of health care for all Americans is immoral and criminal - where's the gray area in that?  The lack of economic and educational opportunities for poor Americans, especially people of color - where's the gray area there?  Things just aren't getting any better and we are tired of fighting the same issues, issues that should have been resolved long ago.

by CarolSoprano 2007-03-16 11:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Are younger folks more moderate?

Obama has NEVER waffled on troop withdrawal in this campaign.  He is for pulling out and his bill had measures to allow troops to stay if Presidential milestones are met and certified by congress.  

As far as the Pace thing... It may be a gaffe, it may have been he was answering another reporters question.  If this was Meet the Press, I'd be upset.  An "ambush" interview after a long event while walking to the car and asked questions by the press mob that follows candidates, is hardly cause for worry that this is his true opinion.  His record speaks for itself on Gay RIghts issues.  If He fucked up, I hope he learns from it... But then I also don't trust Glenn THrush as far as I can throw him.  

TO my understanding, Edwards left this as a possibility open as well.  A small force is NOT really what HRC was calling for.  THere have been soldiers in Iraq since the first Gulf War... It depends on the fuctions of these soldiers whether there is a problem.

One could bring up Kerry/Feingold which called for way too quick of a time table and he voted against... all I will say to that is he some time in coming to his decision... which is what Edwards did as his decision evolved on Iraq.  

Again you are focusing on smaller cosms... the Black and White vs Grey is big picture.  In other words, take two liberals and they may not all agree on the same things.  But to equate it to issues... There are many different ideas for healthcare, for helping the poor... they all fall along the spectrum... there is not one right or wrong way to fix the issue.  But they need to be fixed.

Obama wants to fix these issues... he is strongly in favor of that... but he also feels that in the current enviroment that won't happen.  SO change the game... thats what he is up too.  I think he can do it.  Many of your generation, don't seem to have the same level of optimism.

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 01:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Are younger folks more moderate?

You have me all figured out, don't you?  And because you (think) you do you can dismiss me as just another cynical, out-of-touch, 60's hippy (which I'm not - I was 10 in 1969) that should just shut up and let the younger folks take over.  This is the second time you have accused me of the "black and white" way of thinking.  

Let me just say that if we weren't optimistic for the future we would have given up a long time ago.  We fight because we love this country and know what America is capable of being.  There are indeed issues that are black and white, and if Obama can get health care for all Americans, address global warming, and have a true "No Child Left Behind" program for all American children, I will put my full trust and support behind him.  I feel that Edwards has addressed these issues better.  My belief is that we must address the health care fiasco in this country (followed closely by closing the educational and economic gap and addressing the climate change crisis) - it is our moral imperative to do so.

by CarolSoprano 2007-03-16 02:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Are younger folks more moderate?

Younger folks aren't more moderate, at least not in my experience. Many of us are leftist, but in a different way that you are used to seeing.

I think that is in fact at the core of whatever generational divides do exist - people socialized into politics in the 1960s think that leftist activism or liberal activism will look like it did in the 1960s, and so they're not prepared to see a different expression of the liberal-left in a younger generation.

Ironically, the '60s generation themselves faced that very issue, as the '30s left denounced the '60s left for the same reasons.

As to Obama and Edwards, I think it is still too early to determine which age group will settle down with which candidate. I am 27, and am leaning toward Edwards, because he seems to have a better grasp of our economic needs than does Obama. Others among my cohort may come to the same conclusion; 10 months is a long time.

by eugene 2007-03-16 09:39AM | 0 recs
Re: Are younger folks more moderate?

Yeah, we are gonna be burnt out by January.. I mean look at how heated its gotten and its only March.  Not having a Dem president for 8 years and seeing a golden opportunity to retake the white house is also a bid deal.

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 09:53AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD -

I think that MyDD is better b/c there are far less comments. It is easier to take in, I almost never read the comment section on Dkos.

by gobears 2007-03-16 07:41AM | 0 recs
Wes Clark

I wonder what will happen to these polls and blogs if and when (I hope) Wes Clark declares.

Please.. don't give me the meme about it being to late. I thought that at one point but now it is looking like it may be to early. The others are beating up on each other and the press is going along with it. They are being damaged.

by kevin22262 2007-03-16 07:47AM | 0 recs
Re: Wes Clark

Based on the polls with him in them and his low name ID, I would guess there won't be much of a bump if any at all.  I like Clark, but if he is gonna get in he needs to do it now... he doesn't have an exclusive policy position on a major issue (like Dean did with the war in 2004) and doesn't have the name ID that the Big 3 have.  He isn't AL Gore... he can't get in late and raise 100 million.  

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 09:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Wes Clark

I disagree with you on pretty much all of what you said. Sorry. Except for the part about liking Clark.  :)

by kevin22262 2007-03-17 11:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

Very interesting analysis. I'm far more active on Daily Kos than I am here at MyDD (having less time means less ability to post the kind of constructive comments that are the norm here), but I do fall into the category of the younger spectrum (21 year-old male) that is more prevalent here. I'd be interested to see the exact crosstabs of support of a straight-up Edwards/Obama matchup...the gender gap would be an interesting theory to test in a true statistical setting.

by PsiFighter37 2007-03-16 08:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

On Here or Kos... I feel that way on Kos... not on here.

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 08:30AM | 0 recs
How about admitting it's all about Clark?

Isn't the simplest explanation the best?

You begin your remarks by saying that this is the first poll without Clark.  Then you go on to extrapolate there is an age gap.  

Wouldn't it be simpler to consider that not having Clark in might have something to do with it?  That most likely, what you've got is much softer support right now for people trying to choose between Obama and Edwards?  

Did both polls also include "other"?  Because I know that's where my vote ended up on one of these.

Oh, and by the way, Clark in his speeches continues to give every indication that it's only a matter of time before he, too, will be in this race.  He's just got better things to do with his time (stopiranwar.com and a middle east conference in 3 days) than to try to elbow his way into hissy fits with the other Democratic candidates.

by catherineD 2007-03-16 08:40AM | 0 recs
Weird, but probably true

In 2005, I used to post here a lot and this was my first stop in the blogosphere. I'd read Kos every day but not post or delve into the diaries too much. Kos seemed kind of like a big confusing public high school with all manner of cliques and chaos to navigate, while MyDD was more like the small magnet school where everyone knew each other and we were all on the same page in our focus more on the quantitative nuts and bolts stuff instead of the ranting and hand-wringing that's a big element at Kos (at least in the comments).

In 2006, I pretty much switched loyalties to Kos, started posting there every day, and rarely did more than do a quick read here. I think that was mostly because I discovered it was more gratifying to get dozens of comments on a diary instead of two or three, and that, in spite of the herds of ill-informed whiners running around there always looking to start circular firing squads, you can always find someone to talk hard-headed stuff with in the comments (or about anything else under the sun). (Also, I think I was less enthused about the content in 2006, as Jerome disappeared and Chris started to focus less on quantitative and macro-level stuff and more on activism.)

But what's weird is that another thing that happened in 2006 is that I turned 35. I passed from the oh-so-desirable 25-34 demo into the much frumpier 35-49s. So... in the same year I turned middle-aged and Kos suddenly started to be much more palatable to me. Coincidence?

Oh, and as to the main point of the post, I'm a soft Obama supporter (to the extent that I voted for him at Kos; I didn't vote here), although I'm certainly happy with Edwards too (I always had him at #2 in the IRV polls here back when Feingold was dominating the field). I suppose a lot of that is style over substance in that Obama's positivity and transformational potential appeals to the idealistic college-kid part of my personality that still remains. I suppose I don't feel as motivated by kitchen-table issues as a lot of people at Kos do. So, yes, I think you're accurate in describing the tensions between the two sites... and even the tensions that exist within me.

by Crazy Vaclav 2007-03-16 09:07AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

I am another of the older woman MyDD constituency.  I do browse in dailyKos, but I read most everything on MyDD.  The age analysis is interesting and that kind of inquiry is what we like about MyDD, but the comments just demonstrate the limits of generalizations, especially with moveable variables.  

I could be enthusiastic about Obama, Edwards, Clark, Richardson, all for different reasons, and all with contextual caveats as the campaigns continue. As in, it really depends on how the campaigns evolve, and how we the voters make a difference in that evolution.  I am also a member of that group who quietly cheer everytime it looks like Sen. Clinton makes a misstep. This even though I have been a feminist my entire adult life!  

by ktmseattle 2007-03-16 09:11AM | 0 recs
I Switched...

I switched my vote. I am a regular reader of both sites, and in the MyDD poll I voted for Obama first, and in the Kos vote I voted for Edwards. Events in recent days finally boiled over.

Obama's gay morality comment was pretty important to me. The issue, and his actual committment to gay rights, isn't really the main problem, either. It could have been any issue where he displayed spinelessness.

This may be the first election in a long time where many progressives are voting on character over issues. But the character we are looking for is willingness to stand up for progressive beliefs, groups, and causes. And not always be looking over your shoulder to make sure Sean Hannity isn't there to hear you do it.

In the past few weeks we've had Edwards trying to stand up for bloggers, and then one upping that by being the first candidate to buck the Fox debate and call on Gonzales to resign. I want to support Obama. I may still switch back. Hell, I wanted to be able to support Hillary. But Hiilary has made it impossible. And Obama is making it difficult by trying to have it both ways.

by jwillits 2007-03-16 09:14AM | 0 recs
Re: I Switched...

I still say if he had been asked the question in the same setting that HRC and Edwards were and NOT on the way to the car that the answer would have been different.  The fact the writer is a hack (and I say that from his past work not from this) also says loads about this too me.

He has a stellar track record on supporting gay rights.  He makes one misstatement in a mass of confusion leaving an event and walking to the car.  Your support couldn't have been that strong for him if you switch from little misstatement, that he corrected himself on later.  That's making a mistake not spineless... If he hadn't made the correction later than I see your argument.

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 09:28AM | 0 recs
Re: I Switched...

Unfortunately, we cannot know for sure what kind of a mistake it was. My point is that, if it was a mistake because his first impulse is to think about how his response will play on Fox News, or just to be cautious in general, rather than to be very clear and proud about where he stands, then that's exactly the kind of candidate I don't want representing me.

I admitted my support was (and is) soft. I want to support Obama, but as of yet the proposals and positions still seem a little too vague, a little too positioned, a little too "Clintonian" for me. If as time goes by, he becomes more about substance, and less about "hope" then I will certainly consider him.

by jwillits 2007-03-16 02:53PM | 0 recs
Dkos mobs remove heretics

That doesn't happen here.

The rabid wackos run DKos.  Here, you just get normal Dems.

by dataguy 2007-03-16 09:44AM | 0 recs
Re: Dkos mobs remove heretics

But Passionate Ones!

by yitbos96bb 2007-03-16 09:53AM | 0 recs
Obama, Edwards, MYDD and DailyKOS

At this point, Obama does seem to have greater support among younger voters than Clinton or Edwards, which is an interesting issue in and of itself.  (I know that Edwards, who probably has the biggest and boldest plans of the top three contenders, has been actively trying to reach out to younger voters, hence, his many college tours.)  To the extent that your demographic analysis indicates that my MyDD has a slightly younger average audience than DailKos, I think that is a very plausible explanation for the 15% point difference.

As for the differences between the two sites more generally, where to begin?  As others have noted, MyDD seems to have a cleaner, easier to use format than DailyKos.  The aesthetic contrast between the two sites is quite stark and illustrates a rather obvious point about web sites:  color and font choices are important.  IMHO, MyDD has either chosen or stumbled upon a superior combination of colors and fonts for its web site. The overall user experience at MyDD seems to cleaner and more efficient, and that is a good thing.

On the other hand, in terms of audience size, DailyKos has a vastly larger audience.  What that means is that you can find MUCH more political information at DailyKos on any given day.  Unfortunately, to get all that additional wheat, you have to sift through a correspondingly large amount of chaff.  But a larger audience in general is a MAJOR selling point for DailyKos.  If you have something to say that you think deserves to be considered by the wider blogosphere, you can reach so many more people at DailyKos than you can at MyDD.  (I would love to see MyDD grow in size, and have thought that if others share that hope, they might consider posting a diary at MyDD first, then later at DailyKos, with a reference like:  "Posted earlier at MyDD.")

One last pet peeve about DailyKos...the DailyKos audience seems to be much more enamored with signature lines than the MyDD audience.  While I love a good signature line as much as the next person, I find that they really clutter up the comments sections at DailyKos.  The reader is effectively forced to scan or read hundreds of "off topic" statements in every comments section.  I almost think that DailyKos should come up with a "comments clarity" algorithm that deletes every other signature line in a comments section.  

by Demo37 2007-03-16 10:02AM | 0 recs
Size matters
MYDD is often a pure injection of real information and actionable ideas. Very high value. MYDD has played midwife to the streak of activism in me. I'm doing alot of things now that I might not otherwise be doing were it not for progressive blogosphere/MYDD influence.
Also, MYDD, being smaller, fits my participation style. When I read a front page post or a diary, I open the comments and read every single one of them regardless of how many there are, before I even consider posting a response or rating someone else's comment. I read every comment regardless of the history of that writer or whether I think that person is a campaign shill. In that way, reading the comments is more like active participation and less like--I don't know--reading a newspaper or studying an information source.
Participating like that at kos would be a full-time job.
Also, I'm very appreciative of all of the regular writers here. By contrast, at websites where there are writers that I am contemptuous of (Camile Paglia over at Salon for example), I often won't read the original article at all and instead read the comments only. By doing so, I choose to have my knowledge of the article be entirely mediated by my (usually hostile) fellow readers who did read the article. If Camile did something unpredictable or original, it would show up in the letters and I'd go back and actually read the article.
by johnalive 2007-03-16 10:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio

I don't know if it's a function of the age difference (perhaps it is) but the main difference I see between MyDD and dKos is that here, there is much more of a sense of transformational politics, that we can build new coalitions, shift the underlying political landscape, that we don't have to accept the positioning of voters as it is. At dKos there is much more of a sense of "well this is just how it is, this is the best we can get, we can't really change much, we can just eke out thin margins of victory as best we can."

by eugene 2007-03-16 10:43AM | 0 recs
Re: Worrying about Obama

I still read dkos daily, but with much less anticipation.  I miss Armando's intensity and focus.  It's a jumble over there.  This site is more focused and civil.  I've lurked over here for years.

I agree with everything CarolSoprano said upthread, except that I really am an early boomer and I don't have a candidate yet.  I too worry about Obama's triangulation. His statement that he would be open to being persuaded that he was wrong in his belief that a woman should be able to chose to have an abortion is dangerous, not just pandering.  I know he thinks he's opening a dialogue, but he's riding the back of a tiger. The gay issue was just the latest in his trying to have it both ways.  

by Ms American Pie 2007-03-17 08:10AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards And Obama: A MyDD - Dailykos Generatio
5081-280-0-film-sexe-intention-vieille-f emme-sexe-video-sexe
5081-279-0-blog-perso-porno-femme-poile- tres-erotique-tres-site-gratuit
5081-278-0-film-porno-avec-extrait-gratu it-porno-gratuit-sexe-avec-webcam
5081-277-0-chat-webcam-gratuit-sexe-cite -porno-gratuit-trouver-porno
5081-276-0-annuaire-video-sexe-gratuit-p orno-emule-film-porno-photo
5081-275-0-asiatique-photo-gratuit-porno -photo-salope-black-pussy
5081-273-0-gros-sexe-homme-photo-jeune-s exe-gratuit-sexe-martinique
5081-272-0-annuaire-site-porno-telecharg er-porno-gratuit-annuaire-sexe
5081-270-0-blogspot-porn-video-movies-ma stur-page-video-gratuite-sexe
5081-267-0-free-sexe-anal-orgy-sexe-fran cais-porno-gratuit-image
5081-265-0-hentai-final-fantasy-sexe-por no-free-sexe-gratuit-hard
5081-264-0-sexe-porno-free-video-pack-vi deo-sexe-gratuit-film
5081-263-0-suceuse-photo-porno-femme-ind ienne-metisse-sexe-amateur
5081-262-0-sexe-shop-travestie-sexe-grat uit-uniquement-clip-porno-gratuit
5081-261-0-gratuit-sexe-gratuit-clip-fre e-photo-annuaire
5081-260-0-gratuit-sexe-gratuit-clip-fre e-photo-annuaire
5081-259-0-extrait-video-porno-gratuit-f emme-mure-sexe-webcam-chat
5081-258-0-gratuit-anal-sexe-movie-free- arabe-gratuit
5081-257-0-forum-divx-sexe-webcam-gratui t-sexe-road-extrait-sexe
5081-256-0-porno-gratui-video-porno-grat uit-amateur-hentai-extr
5081-255-0-video-sexe-entierement-gratui t-femme-vedio-porno
5081-254-0-webcam-gratuit-photo-porno-gr atuite-video-sexe-vraiment-gratuite
5081-253-0-porno-gratuit-porno-free-vide o-porno-download-extrai
5081-252-0-video-porno-mature-gratuit-vi deo-free-video-mangas-gratuit
5081-251-0-video-porno-telecharger-gratu ite-mangas-video-gratuit-sidonie
-151-0-beurette-anal-porno-hard-porno-bl ack-film-sexe-telecharger
-150-0-extrait-film-sexe-hard-gratuit-jp eg-galerie-speedinfos
-149-0-bondage-photo-porno-gratuit-galer ie-video-blog-porno-intime
-148-0-image-film-photo-sexe-galerie-ann uaire-actrice-porno-vide
-147-0-longue-video-sexe-gratuit-blog-se xe-couple-live-sexe-france-lesb
-146-0-video-password-free-asiatique-gra tuit-photo-porn
-145-0-sexe-anal-photo-blog-porno-hard-h ard-porno-francais-mini-clip
-144-0-femme-menage-magasin-porno-porno- gros-sein-achat
-143-0-porno-photo-galerie-sexe-hard-fuc king-femme-mure-video
-142-0-film-porno-arabe-video-sexe-free- video-sample-demo-clip
-141-0-lesbienne-porno-porno-anal-blonde -hentai-annuaire
-140-0-video-sexe-amateur-gratuit-skyblo g-porno-video-echange-sexe-couple
-139-0-video-porno-gratuit-participer-fi lm-porno-amateur-porno-mature
-138-0-mangas-porno-censure-boutique-sex e-shop-porno-gratuit
-137-0-mangas-sexe-photo-sexe-amateur-gr atuit-photo-photo-sexe-femme
-136-0-sexe-extreme-dilatation-extrait-f ilm-gratuit-porno-hentai-pokemon
-135-0-taille-penis-acteur-porno-jeune-v ieille-sexe-muscle
-134-0-sexe-video-brunette-gratuit-extra it-porno-amateur-sexe-mature
-133-0-photo-sailor-moon-gratuit-video-p orno-francaise-gratuite-porno
-132-0-webcam-gratuite-sexe-asiatique-gr os-sein-acteur-porno
-131-0-webcam-gratuite-sexe-asiatique-gr os-sein-acteur-porno
-130-0-webcam-gratuite-sexe-asiatique-gr os-sein-acteur-porno
-21-0-sexe-clip-video-sexe-film-video-po rno-gratuit-hard-sexe
-20-0-sexe-mangas-sexe-hard-blog-blog-po rno-photo-castin
-18-0-sexe-francais-photo-porno-gratuit- porno-video-ratui-down
178-0-clip-porno-mature-porno-porno-vide o-gratuite
177-0-femme-sexe-photo-gratuite-ebony-st ar-mature-porno-gratuit
176-0-extrait-film-skyblog-kourou-sexe-s exe-gogo-gratuit
175-0-sexe-clip-gratuit-image-sexe-volee -sans-paiement-montreal-sexe
174-0-sexe-porno-webcam-gratis-porno-por no-image-porno-sexe-video
173-0-webcam-sexe-femme-mure-grattuit-po rno-hard-acteur-porno
172-0-femme-ronde-femme-maroc-porno-arab e-video-clip-gratuit-porno
171-0-video-porno-gratui-payer-photo-ins olite-sexe
170-0-photo-porno-crade-gratis-photo-por no-arabe-gratuit-sexe-porno-hard
169-0-video-gratuite-sexe-amateur-film-f rancais-porno-gratuit-porn
168-0-photo-sexe-homme-carre-rouge-annua ire-sexe-toon-gratuit
167-0-pomme-banane-annuaire-sexe-gratuit -black-porn-sexe-jeune-avec
165-0-porno-gratis-video-divx-emule-sexe -rousse-allopass-lesbienne
164-0-catoons-porno-arabe-agnes-photo-gr atuite-sexe-vieille
163-0-sexe-amateur-gratuit-couple-blog-p orno-clara-morgane-sexe-porn
162-0-galerie-photo-sexe-telecharger-por no-gratuit
161-0-photo-sexe-totalement-gratuit-phot o-porno-arabe-sexe-homme
160-0-sexe-baise-hard-video-photo-extrai t-video-gratuit-film-porno
159-0-extrait-video-porno-hard-portail-b log-sexe-sexe-galerie-tele
158-0-photo-homme-sexe-video-sexe-mature -star-celebrite-sexe-vide
157-0-rencontre-sexe-dijon-video-porno-e xtrait-gratuit-sexe-bizarre
156-0-sexe-photo-gratuite-lesbienne-soph ie-histoire-sexe-jouer
155-0-telecharger-video-sexe-mangas-amat eur-sexe-anal-porno-video
154-0-porno-amateur-club-extrait-porno-g ratuit-sans-telechargement
153-0-porno-agadir-blogspot-hentai-sexe- gratuit-amateur-page
99-0-blog-porno-bretagne-petit-extrait-f ilm-porno-gratuit-blog-vide
98-0-clip-porno-gratis-porno-gratuit-pas sword-newyorkbuttman
97-0-extrait-video-sexe-gratuit-avec-gem issement-image-sexe-etudia
96-0-sexe-live-clip-mega-extrait-video-p orno-sexe-sexe
95-0-sexe-amateur-video-gratuit-galerie- photo-sexe-amateur-film-divx
94-0-sexe-video-gratuit-extrait-amatrice -sexe-free-star-girl-porno
93-0-video-russe-porno-movies-muscle-hor se-photo
92-0-beauty-girls-free-video-star-sexe-f ilm-porno-image-porno
91-0-free-sample-femme-experimentees-sex e-anal-femme-mure-sexe
90-0-sexe-amateur-free-sexe-chat-telecha rger-sexe-gratuit
88-0-galerie-gratuite-porno-doctissimo-f orum-sexe-femme-vieille-porno
86-0-clip-video-black-gratuit-divx-clara -morgane-gratuit-film
83-0-clip-video-black-gratuit-divx-clara -morgane-gratuit-film
3904-sex-porn-viedeo-gratuit-sans-telech argement
3898-porn-attitude-extrait-gratuit-lubri que
5416-film-and-porno-and-amateur-and-grat is
5412-voir-extrait-video-porno-sans-abonn ement-
5462-film-porno-amateur-avec-jeune-vierg e
5453-extrait-video-porno-telecharger-gra tuitement
00-and-pro-and-exhibitionniste-black-et- blond-porno-femme-africaine-film-xxx-cha t-land-sexe-telecharger-gratuit-video-xx x-telecharger-video-porno-amateur-mangas -xxx-gratuit-anal-photo-video-gratuite/
99-sexe-porno-dvd-show-film-porno-franca is-jill-kelly-anal-xxx-porno-sexo-image- porno-portable-video-star-porno-hakan-ac teur-porno-video-gratuite-sexe-couple-am atrice-and-libertin-and-sexe-and-xxx/
98-mangas-porno-chat-sexe-cam-moteur-tro uver-jeu-sexe-voir-un-film-porno-gratuit -webcam-chat-sexe-gratuite-divx-porno-xx x-com-rencontre-sexe-sur-avignon-femme-x xx-rencon-star-academy-photo/
97-webcam-lesbienne-sexe-porno-arabe-fot os-algerie-du-sex-hard-xxx-extrait-de-fi lm-de-sexe-free-xxx-porno-film-sur-le-se xe-xxx-mobile-sex-photo-de-sexe-poilue-m angas-and-sexe-and-gratuit-extrait/
95-gratuit-sexe-gode-amatrice-disney-xxx -sexe-blog-avec-photo-porno-jeu-xxx-adul te-sexe-and-annuaire-de-sexe-gratuit-ses so-porno-gratis-sexe-video-extrait-gratu it-video-combat-femme-huile-xxx/
93-sexe-femme-photo-sexe-and-gratuit-and -fr-free-porno-sexy-girls-extrait-porno- gratis-gay-hentai-xxx-video-sexe-asiatiq ue-sexe-anal-preparation-video-porno-de- lesbienne-gratuite-sexe/
91-amatrice-galerie-sexe-porno-video-gra tuite-porno-amateur-video-extreme-sexe-w ebcam-amateur-porno-arabe-sexe-rapidshar e-extrait-free-video-xxx-xxx-webcam-grat uit-sexe-femme-mure-mature/
90-femme-noire-sexe-film-de-porno-chic-p orno-sexe-arabe-hard-xxx-in-seychelles-m angas-hard-xxx-sex-porno-salope-chat-sex e-hard-gratuit-acteur-de-porno-rocco-sif redi-sexe-gratuit/
89-sexe-skyblog-xxx-sexe-gratuit-porno-g ros-sein-black-clip-sexe-gratuit-video-p erso-star-porno-noire-sexe-and-beurette- sexe-gratuit-extrait-video-xxx-sample-mo vies-film-xxx-blonde-salope-film-porno/
88-porno-video-amateur-histoire-gay-porn o-sexe-extremement-bizarre-sexe-femme-gr atuit-star-and-porno-black-girls-porno-f emme-exhibitionniste-libertin-aimant-sex e-film-cinema-sexe-porno-chaude/
87-xxx-mangas-xxx-hard-free-sexe-homo-je u-adulte-xxx-only-video-xxx-paris-hilton -gay-sexe-video-festival-film-xxx-photo- porno-gratis-humour-sexe-sexe-photo-grat uite-lesbienne-sexe-totalement-gratuit/
86-sexe-hard-gratuit-video-gratuite-blag ue-humour-sexe-photo-sexe-asiatique-film -francais-pied-sexe-porno-video-sex-sexe -film-gratuit-fr-julia-chanel-porno-hard -gay-and-sexe-porno-femme-maroc-couple/
85-sexe-entre-femme-porno-xxx-video-grat uit-blog-and-porno-and-amateur-galerie-p hoto-gratuite-porno-masturbating-lolita- xxx-sexe-xxx-maroc-extrait-gratuit-sexe- video-film-xxx-entier-ado-gay-sexe/
84-annuaire-and-porno-and-gratuit-sexe-p enetration-anal-sexe-ultra-jeune-sexe-gr atuit-gay-petit-cul-noire-xxx-sexe-gratu it-black-lieux-de-rencontre-sexe-film-am ateur-porno-galerie-sexe-gratuit-amateur
83-film-xxx-lesbienne-gratuit-star-nu-xx x-rencontre-sexe-lorraine-sexe-amateur-v ideo-bollywood-actress-xxx-photo-voissa- annuaire-sexe-gratuit-site-out-video-sex e-live-yasmine-actrice-porno-marocaine

82-clip-porno-gratuite-sexe-anal-tribu-g ratuit-photo-xxx-gay-xxx-black-soul-free -sexe-chat-sexe-extreme-bizarre-film-por no-x-hard-visio-cam-sexe-gratuit-scene-s exe-film-sexe-photo-porno-hard-extreme/
81-sex-video-porno-gratuit-zabou-photo-f ree-porno-sexe-hard-avec-singe-gratuit-i mage-porno-sexephile-muscle-men-xxx-hard -image-porno-d-angelina-jolie-free-clip- sexe-sexe-video-extrait-xxx-porno-sex/
80-extrait-film-porno-gratui-illustratio n-hard-porno-video-porno-totalement-grat uit-cinema-porno-danois-sexe-live-fr-pho to-sexe-sur-asiatique-hard-sexe-office-b log-sexe-beurette-extrait-film-porno-yas mine/
78-video-and-gratuit-and-gratuit-porno-b log-gay-photo-porno-video-porno-xxx-grat uit-free-sexe-gratuit-rencontre-homme-fe mme-photo-sexe-annuaire-sexe/
74-ferme-sexe-sex-movie-xxx-clip-sexe-po rno-gratuit-extrait-film-xxx-xxx-sex-pic -x-porno-gratuit-hard-and-xxx-vieille-fe mme-sexe-photo-de-sexe-xxx-gratuit-histo ire-gratuite-porno-tgp-sexe-gros-plan/
25-xxx-photo-sexe-gratuit-hard-jeu-sexe- en-ligne-gratuit-photo-porno-gratuite-je une-couple-star-porno-yasmine-porno-lesb ian-gratis-annuaire-porno-gratuit-free-g alerie-porno-live-webcam-sexe/
24-et-webcam-sexe-gratuit-photo-video-se xe-anal-miss-moteur-and-and-recherche-an d-sexe-and-annuaire-charme-and-annuaire- charme-and-site-film-porno-image-gratuit -mangas-dbz-xxx-photo-femme/
23-gratuite-porno-film-gratui-sex-xxx-re ncontre-sexe-a-clermont-ferrand-les-plus -belle-femme-du-porno-porno-galerie-porn o-site-arabe-sexe-beurette-charme-porno- and-lesbienne-sexe-amateur-et-video/
22-maroc-porno-agadir-sexe-beurette-pers o-amateur-sexe-hard-porno-francais-gratu it-porno-photo-sexe-gay-beur-gratuite-vi llage-xxx-amateur-kokins-et-coquin-telec hargement-and-video-and-xxx-and/
21-femme-vid-o-hot-video-porno-et-gratui t-photo-xxx-gratuite-star-tennis-anna-ko urnikova-sex-photo-porno-sexe-asiatique- hard-muscle-men-xxx-xxx-arab-sex-photo-x xx-de-star-mangas-sexe-gratuit/
20-sexe-de-jeune-etudiante-vieille-sexe- gratuit-webcam-gratuite-porno-video-grat uis-porno-amateur-photo-porno-photo-sexe -black-gratuit-ado-xxx-photo-video-gratu it-extrait-clip-video-porno-gratuit-sexe
19-photo-porno-gratuite-sexe-amateur-gra tuit-jacquie-et-michel-celebre-porno-sta r-sexe-xxx-extremement-hard-video-sexe-h ard-jeu-porno-gratuit-image-sur-le-porno -hardcore-sexe-francais-xxx-hard-anal

18-porno-telecharger-porno-gratui-telech argement-video-sexe-image-animee-sexe-mu scle-xxx-men-salope-ivoirienne-xxx-inter net-explore-porno-sexe-anal-alice-sexe-c rade-dirty-xxx-movies-photo-jeune/
17-mec-gay-porno-porno-movie-free-sex-xx x-black-actrice-porno-jasmine-gay-photo- gratuit-porno-clip-xxx-free-extrait-vide o-porno-gratuite-francaise-histoire-sexe -illustree-jeune-femme-casting-porno/
16-sexe-homme-grand-mami-salope-xxx-matu re-porno-incest-porno-anal-gay-sexe-femm e-lesbienne-girls-sex-xxx-telechargement -divx-porno-voir-telecharger-video-film- sexe-porno-totalement-gratuit/
15-mamie-gratuit-photo-sexe-poilu-sexe-h omme-photo-soft-extrait-sexe-extreme-pho to-sexe-galerie-sexe-feminin-velu-star-f rancaise-sexe-porno-sex-arabe-extrait-vi deo-hard-sexe-rencontre-sexe-gratuit/
14-avec-photo-mangas-free-sexe-voir-star -xxx-video-gratuite-sexe-gay-mangas-porn o-gratuite-sexe-black-video-gratuit-tele charge-des-film-porno-gratuit-sexe-gay-g ratuit-photo-amateur-xxx-amateur/
08-sexe-meilleur-extrait-film-porno-grat uit-tele-charger-free-porno-galerie-hist oire-de-sexe-net-femme-maroc-porno-arabe -photo-sexe-poilu-gratuit-bd-classique-p orno-sexe-image-gratuit-horse-sex-xxx/
06-cauet-video-and-porno-and-gratos-porn o-star-galerie-photo-sexe-de-femme-asiat ique-video-and-porno-and-extrait-video-g ratuite-sexe-a-telecharger-alizee-sexe-p orno-webcam-gratuit-xxx-final-fantasy/
05-image-download-xxx-image-and-porno-an d-gratuite-video-sexe-mature-film-xxx-am ateur-francais-photo-yasmine-star-porno- grosse-marocaine-beurette-sexe-gay-porno -video-demo-photo-femme-sexe/
01-gratuite-photo-porno-chatte-galerie-a nd-video-and-porno-photo-sexe-suisse-gra tuite-sexe-porno-francais-gratuit-annuai re-porno-gay-clara-morgan-actrice-porno- porno-africain-beurette-xxx-amateur/
03-asian-porno-film-et-photo-porno-nylon -photo-sexe-amateur-sexe-anal-porno-sex- video-porno-xxx-extrait-video-sexe-belge -xxx-photo-video-com-porno-couple-amateu r-jeune-gay-sexe-forum/
50-porno-gratis-blog-perso-video-porno-s ex-xxx-orientale-porn-paris-hilton-film- xxx-sexe-gratuit-extrait-gratuit-sexe-fe mme-rencontre-video-gratuit-xxx-porno-es panol-gratis-photo-porno-marocaine/
49-gratuite-lesbienne-and-sexe-meilleur- extrait-film-porno-gratuit-beauty-girls- xxx-free-hard-sexe-porno-video-sexe-grat uit-de-star-black-porno-gay-blog-and-sex e-and-amatrice-skyblog-sexe-string-salop e/
48-porno-gay-gratuit-fr-photo-gay-photo- gay-ejaculation-faciale-htm-jeune-femme- sexe-sexe-tres-hard-sexe-video-amateur-g ratuite-vieille-sexe-photo-arabe-porno-s ex-sexe-gay-xxx-gratuit-cul-xxx-pipe/
47-porno-xxx-skyblog-paris-hilton-sexe-p hoto-modele-xxx-arabe-femme-amatrice-sex e-hard-salle-de-cinema-porno-gay-porno-v ideo-gratis-photo-xxx-gratos-pussy-foot- girls-porno-sex-lolita-xxx-xxx/
46-sexe-shop-dvd-photo-gratuite-sexe-xxx -gay-gratuite-free-gay-sexe-video-porno- telecharger-sexe-black-free-xxx-amateur- black-gratuit-clip-gratuit-sexe-lien-emu le-porno-pps-sexe-hard-video/
45-porno-retro-free-porno-femme-arab-xxx -extrait-gay-porno-rencontre-et-sexe-xxx -and-password-cam-frog-sexe-free-sexe-de pucelage-puceau-mature-porno-gratuit-ext rait-film-porno-hard-gratuit-sexe/
44-cam-amateur-histoire-and-porno-asiati que-gay-porno-video-mangas-xxx-gratuite- photo-sexe-amateur-gratuit-sans-connexio n-plus-video-porno-gay-gratuit-video-gra tuite-film-porno-jeu-interactif-porno/
42-porno-gratuit-marocain-gay-sexe-gratu it-photo-clip-porno-francais-dvd-film-in dien-porno-video-sexe-humour-sex-porno-x xx-gros-sein-porno-dominique-sexephile-w eb-cam-sexe-gratuite-hardcor-porno/
40-homme-xxx-dbz-msn-hot-sexe-lesbienne- sexe-toons-net-blogspot-xxx-sex-porn-vid eo-movies-video-gay-sexe-gratuit-photo-d e-sexe-crade-live-sexe-france-mangas-por no-photo-gratuite-jeu-de-sexe-sur/
37-image-sexy-sexe-mangas-and-porno-and- gratuit-extrait-porno-gratuis-sexe-amate ur-francais-video-porno-x-banana-sexe-sh op-video-gay-sexe-photo-gratuite-sexe-pl ein-ecran-image-and-porno-video/
35-anal-extrait-flim-porno-gratuit-sexe- histoire-free-porno-pictures-video-amate ur-corse-sexe-sexe-gratuit-jeune-casting -porno-gay-sexe-girls-xxx-sexe-shop-vide o-jeu-java-xxx-mangas-et-sexe-site/
33-porno-hard-gay-skyblog-avec-du-sexe-v ideo-porno-amateur-gratuit-video-sexe-gr atuit-amateur-video-porno-a-telecharger- gratuitement-divx-and-emule-and-xxx-anim e-hentai-xxx-annuaire/
30-hot-sexe-histoire-sexe-homme-nu-sex-x xx-video-gratuit-video-porno-gratuite-pa mela-anderson-gratuit-sexe-lesbienne-sex e-bizarre-extreme-grosse-femme-xxx-video -porno-gay-gratuit/
27-sexe-gra-gratuit-porno-video-string-s ex-porno-femme-aimant-sexe-sexe-vraiment -gratuit-blog-poil-sexe-gratuit-xxx-beur ette-film-porno-asiatique-gratuit-portai l-du-sexe-extrait-sexe/
26-sexe-xxl-tres-poilu-photo-gratuit-asi atique-porno-free-sexe-extreme-sex-femme -porno-porno-and-retro-film-sex-xxx-sexe -tres-jeune-thailandaise-piercing-forum- langue-sexe-anal/
80-film-porno-francais-sexe-gay-video-gr atuit-photo-porno-mature-gratuit-xxx-lat ina-porno-film-gratuit-porno-et-hard-xxx -adult-free-movies-oral-sexe-chat-sexe-a mateur-gratuit-extrait-gratuit/
78-sexe-arabe-wedoo-divx-porno-amatrice- sexe-fellation-vraie-photo-paris-histoir e-sm-sexe-sexe-penetration-extreme-video -sexe-hard-francais-dvd-black-porno-tele chargement-jeu-xxx-free-film-x-porno/
76-movies-free-le-sexe-et-l-homme-film-x xx-complet-jacquie-and-annuaire-and-sexe -amateur-xxx-gratuit-video-cul-xxx-telec hargement-gratuit-video-sexe-xxx-movies- free-jeu-societe-xxx-sex-porno-film/
74-nouveau-temple-film-porno-xxx-clito-a nd-bizarre-and-sexe-bizarre-gay-sexe-pho to-beur-gratuit-sexe-filmes-live-xxx-sex -dirty-mom-porno-sexy-girl-elite-skyblog -gay-sex-dvd-sexe-shop-gratuit-extrait-f ilm/
71-photo-porno-russe-gratuit-sex-porno-e xtrait-petits-sexe-homme-video-porno-cas ting-extreme-sexe-lesbienne-sexe-photo-g ratuite-x-porno-jeu-xxx-porno-xxx-bbw-se xy-women-photo-password-and-b/
69-femme-sexe-photo-gratuit-free-and-sex e-and-video-paris-hilton-son-film-xxx-ex trait-de-film-gratuit-de-sexe-porno-hard -beurette-clip-vidacos-sexe-photo-xxx-fr ee-telecharger-video-sexe-amateur-video/
67-porno-gratuite-clip-video-black-xxx-g ratuit-divx-xxx-video-gratui-de-porno-vi deo-porno-free-film-porno-mangas-photo-g ay-gratuit-sexe-xxx-sexe-hot-porno-xxx-s ex-blog-amateur-sexe-porno-free/
66-free-xxx-lupa-land-com-sexe-clip-grat uit-porno-granny-free-sexe-string-hot-se xe-and-video-and-amateur-photo-sexe-x-fr ee-free-sexe-mature-nain-sexe-photo-grat uite/
64-bizarre-sexe-video-xxx-sur-vieille-zt -vieux-bourgeois-porno-femme-chatte-poil ue-galerie-sexe-femme-ronde-photo-porno- de-femme-mure-photo-porno-black-gratuit- sexe-video-porno/
62-sexe-extrait-gratos-porno-show-live-s exe-dvd-lot-de-film-porno-dorcel-et-priv ate-porno-clip-free-amateur-sexe-free-gi rls-xxx-porno-bella-dona-mature-sexe-sex e-direct-live-porno-and-black-video/
60-sexe-gratuit-gay-porno-fiml-gratuit-t gp-xxx-famous-toon-image-de-sexe-insolit e-gratuit-sexe-sexe-en-live-webcam-amatr ice-sexe-belge-video-blonde-xxx-free-x-m ovies-porno-star-photo-porno-couple/
58-movie-clip-jeu-de-sexe-en-flash-free- xxx-thumbnail-galerie-sexe-a-gogo-com-ph oto-xxx-lesbienne-annuaire-sexe-gratuit- photo-gratuit-photo-et-video-porno-gay-p orno-video-gratuite-gratuit-sexe-porno/
59-gratuit-star-academy-xxx-demo-et-extr ait-dvd-porno-rencontre-sexe-gratuit-vie ille-pute-manque-sexe-video-chat-porno-g ratis-sexe-hard-gros-sein-clip-sexe-grat os-photo-truquee-sexe-de-star-girls-sexe
57-image-et-video-porno-porno-arabe-grad uit-sexe-video-porno-action-dvd-video-ju lie-xxx-gratuit-etre-acteur-porno-gay-bl ack-ass-candy-beauty-xxx-image-dragon-ba ll-porno-hentai-dragon-ball-xxx-cul

55-hard-gratuit-hentai-freegallery-porno -gay-photo-video-annuaire-sexe-gratui-gr atos-porno-mature-porno-free-dvd-interac tif-sexe-film-x-free-xxx-photo-sexe-grat uite-professeur-extrait-video-gratuite-p orno/
by luisatajos 2007-05-31 12:59AM | 0 recs


Advertise Blogads