Obama on Iran

A candidate supporter diary for MyDD

It should come as no surprise that the recently released NIE which asserts that Iran had abandoned it's nuclear weapons program in 2003 has descended like a thunderbolt on US politics.  The pros and cons of this assessment are still sinking in and have resulted in some strange turnabouts and the jury, of course, claims to still be undecided on it's impact on previous plans, policies and propagandising:  


The conclusions of the new assessment are likely to reshape the final year of the Bush administration, which has made halting Iran's nuclear program a cornerstone of its foreign policy.

Mark Mazzeti - NYT 3 Dec 07

This report not only up-ends truth-or-dare presidential politics, neo-conservative credos and campaign trail rhetoric but squarely busts the Vice President's resilient bunker.  It certainly throws into disarray the carefully crafted sanctions discussions we now know to have been under-way among the Security Council powers.  And in spite of claims of victory or vindication it is worth considering Senator Barack Obama's position on Iran throughout this campaign, as it has certainly weathered this little storm and is becoming, well, pretty close to mainstream policy:


Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid urged Bush to announce "a top-to-bottom review of his Iran policy" and launch a "diplomatic surge" on the country.

"He should announce that his Secretary of State and Secretary of Defense are prepared to meet anytime, anywhere with their Iranian counterparts to conduct vigorous diplomacy to advance U.S. interests and address the challenges of Iran," the Nevada Democrat said.

Matthew Hay Brown - The Swamp 4 Dec 07

There is no doubt that Senator Obama was ahead of the curve with these comments from a NYT article in early November:


Making clear that he planned to talk to Iran without preconditions, Mr. Obama emphasized further that "changes in behavior" by Iran could possibly be rewarded with membership in the World Trade Organization, other economic benefits and security guarantees.

"We are willing to talk about certain assurances in the context of them showing some good faith," he said in the interview at his campaign headquarters here. "I think it is important for us to send a signal that we are not hellbent on regime change, just for the sake of regime change, but expect changes in behavior. And there are both carrots and there are sticks available to them for those changes in behavior."

Michael R Gordon and Jeff Zaleny - NYT 2 Nov 07

This is precisely the position which Senator Obama has maintained since early February when the campaign commenced and it has endured unchanged while the climate of public opinion has undergone a marked shift.

His position on negotiating with Iran has been consistent since this early interview when the threat of Iran loomed unreasonably large and war was considered almost imminent.  It blew them away:


KROFT: Would you talk to Iran or Syria?

OBAMA: Yes. I think that the notion that this administration has -- that not talking to our enemies is effective punishment -- is wrong. ... You know, we can have a robust strategy of blocking and containing aggressive actions by hostile or rogue states, but still open up the possibility that over time those relationships may evolve and they may change. And there may be opportunities for us to resolve some of our differences, not all of them, but some of them in a constructive way.

Steve Kroft's Interview With Sen. Obama - CBS 11 Feb 07

Though this courageous stand led to the most damaging narrative of his campaign, that he was 'naïve and irresponsible' for holding it, the idea has gained broad support and become a rallying point for dissenting foreign policy opinion, including from some whom are clearly not supporters of Senator Obama:


On its face, Mr. Obama's idea seems little more than a far-left fantasy. But perhaps it looks this way because we are viewing it through too narrow a conception of warfare. We tend to think of our wars as miniature versions of World War II, a war of national survival. But since then we have fought wars in which our national survival was not immediately, or even remotely, at stake. We have fought wars in distant lands for rather abstract reasons, and there has been the feeling that these were essentially wars of choice: We could win or lose without jeopardizing our nation's survival.

Mr. Obama's idea clearly makes no sense in a context of national survival. It would have been absurd for President Roosevelt to fly to Berlin and talk to Hitler. But Mr. Obama's idea does make sense in the buildup to wars where survival is not at risk--wars that are more a matter of urgent choice than of absolute necessity.

[...]

Great power scares unless it is exercised within a painstaking moral framework. Thus, moral authority is the single greatest challenge of American foreign policy. This is especially so in wars of discipline, wars fought far away and for abstract reasons. We argue for such wars as if they were wars of survival because we want the moral authority that comes so automatically to them. But Iraq is a war of discipline, and no more. If we left Iraq tomorrow there would be terrible consequences all around, but we would survive.

Shelby Steel Obama is Right on Iran WSJ 26 Nov 07

It is increasingly clear that not only was Senator Obama correct to articulate this view but that it also has the potential for a following that may cross, such as it is, the divide of Democrat and Republican.  The underlying theme is a renewal of the moral authority of the United States in international affairs:


And I won't hesitate to use the power of American diplomacy to stop countries from obtaining these weapons or sponsoring terror. The lesson of the Bush years is that not talking does not work. Go down the list of countries we've ignored and see how successful that strategy has been. We haven't talked to Iran, and they continue to build their nuclear program. We haven't talked to Syria, and they continue support for terror. We tried not talking to North Korea, and they now have enough material for 6 to 8 more nuclear weapons.

[...]

President Kennedy said it best: "Let us never negotiate out of fear, but let us never fear to negotiate." Only by knowing your adversary can you defeat them or drive wedges between them.

[...]

They will no longer have the excuse of American intransigence. They will have our terms: no support for terror and no nuclear weapons.

Senator Obama - The War We Need to Win 1 Aug 07

It is worth noting this context when considering Senator Obama's opposition to the now infamous Kyl/Lieberman amendment:


We were counseled by some of the most experienced voices in Washington that the only way for Democrats to look tough was to talk, act, and vote like Republicans.

[...]

Because I think the pundits have it wrong. I think the American people have had enough of politicians who go out of their way to look tough, who say one thing in a caucus and another in a general election. When I am the nominee of our party, the choice will be clear.  My Republican opponent won't be able to say that we both supported this war in Iraq.  He won't be able to say that we really agree about using the war in Iraq to justify military action against Iran, or about the diplomacy of not talking and saber-rattling. He won't be able to say that I haven't been open and straight with the American people, or that I've changed my positions. And you know what?  The American people want that choice. Because I believe that's what we need in our next President.

Senator Obama Lessons from Iraq 12 Oct 07

In the aftermath of the release of the NIE two days ago Obama made the following admonition, just for the record:


"Members of Congress must carefully read the intelligence before giving the president any justification to use military force."

Marc Santora - NYT 4 Dec 07

It is pretty clear that Senator Obama has differentiated a coherent foreign policy agenda for his campaign which is well-informed and pragmatic, and which exhibits the clarity, courage and prescience of his 2002 speech.

Tags: Election 2008, foreign policy, Iran, obama (all tags)

Comments

56 Comments

Obama skipped - dodged - the vote on Iran

He was too busy raising money to be concerned with Iran at the time.  Now he acts concerned.  Obama is only concerned with being elected in my opinion.  He is a just another phoney pol that has been scripted, carefully packaged, and marketed to voters with a vast campaign war chest.  

If Obama thougth Iran was important he should have been there to vote on it.  Instead he dodged that vote.  Maybe if he had the option of voting "present" he would have shown up.

He dodged the vote that condemned Moveon.org too.  That is weak as well.

by dpANDREWS 2007-12-05 05:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama skipped - dodged - the vote on Iran

Well, in spite of your strictly subjective observations the rest of the Democratic field is pretty clearly isolating Hillary on Iran:


DES MOINES, Dec. 4 -- One day after a new U.S. intelligence report said that Iran had halted work on its nuclear program, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) faced repeated criticism in a debate here Tuesday for supporting a Senate resolution that her rivals said encouraged saber-rattling rhetoric from President Bush toward the Middle Eastern nation.

Dan Balz and Anne E Kornblut - Washington Post 5 Dec 07

How wrong could she be?  Very wrong, apparently:


In fact, in September Mrs. Clinton, Democrat of New York, voted in favor of a Senate measure declaring the Iranian Revolutionary Guards "proliferators of mass destruction," a vote that was condemned by her rivals in the Democratic field. After the vote, her aides issued a statement saying, "The Revolutionary Guards are deeply involved in Iran's nuclear program."

Mark Santora - NYT 4 Dec 07

Yeah, the nuclear program we know now doesn't exist.  Where were her aides getting their intelligence, I wonder.  And on the Kyl/Lieberman vote in light of the NIE findings:


"Our experience should have shown us the danger in trusting this Administration as it marched to war. That is why I and many of my colleagues -- at least many of those who bothered to vote -- opposed the Kyl-Lieberman Amendment. Unfortunately, Senator Clinton instead chose to lend credence to the Administration's position." ...  Dodd concludes, "It's easy to say 'fool me once, shame on George Bush,' but when she's been fooled twice, shame on her."  

Mark Murray - MSNBC First Read 4 Dec 07

Oh, and on outlandish suggestions that Kyl/Leiberman has actually had any effect:

"I understand politics, and I understand making outlandish political charges, but this really goes way too far," Clinton said. "Having designated the Iranian Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization, we've actually seen some changes in their behavior."

But Clinton found few allies among her rivals, none of whom had joined her in support of the resolution, which easily passed the Senate in September. "There's no evidence -- none, zero -- that this declaration caused any change in action on the part of the Iranian government," said Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. (Del.).

Dan Balz and Anne E Kornblut - Washington Post 5 Dec 07

If you stuck to the issues instead of offering merely an ad hominem attack of the candidate your criticism would be more credible.

by Shaun Appleby 2007-12-05 01:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama skipped - dodged - the vote on Iran

Well, there's certainly a distinction between the intelligence available to Senators like Hillary and the intelligence available to the White House - unless you believe Bush's crazy statements that he didn't know anything about what was in the NIE until last week.

But it's still disappointing to see good Democrats let narratives like "Iran is working on nukes" seep into the conventional wisdom without even stopping to ask where the evidence is.

I'm not exactly a dove by the standards of the Democratic Party.  All I've said on Iran, for the last year or two, is that people should demand to see the proof of what Iran is supposedly up to.  Don't let "Iran is working on nukes" be one of those things that everyone just "knows" is true, the same way everyone "knew" that Saddam had WMDs.

In my view, Democrats should be taking the lead in raising questions and demanding the evidence regarding these sorts of claims, rather than helping them become part of the conventional wisdom.  Maybe someday, after Democrats lose their undying fear of appearing "weak" on national security, we'll see that kind of courage.

by Steve M 2007-12-05 01:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama skipped - dodged - the vote on Iran

I agree, which is why I quoted Obama's statement about acting like Republicans.  The thing about Hillary's positions are that they carry considerable weight due to her role on the influential and, hopefully, well-informed Armed Services Committee.  It makes you wonder sometimes.

by Shaun Appleby 2007-12-05 02:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama skipped - dodged - the vote on Iran

And doves, it seems, are rapidly following the Passenger Pigeon to oblivion.

by Shaun Appleby 2007-12-05 03:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama skipped - dodged - the vote on Iran

Matt Yglesias had an interesting point today. Our country's tradition has long been to err on the side of caution when it comes to war and foreign policy, and that hasn't changed.  But before 9/11, caution meant we should be very careful about not going to war.  Under Bush, caution meant we should be very careful about NOT going to war.

In other words, we didn't know Saddam's intentions with certainty, but we went to war because we "couldn't afford to take the chance."  Again with Iran, the hawks are arguing that okay, the intelligence says what it says, but can we afford to take the chance that it might be wrong?  God help us if this remains the standard way of thinking for long.

by Steve M 2007-12-05 04:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama skipped - dodged - the vote on Iran

The damage has been done and it is going to take a conscientious and determined effort to reverse this trend, one of the things I am hoping an Obama administration will provide.  Sadly, I think that our leaders have misused our natural patriotism to pursue unstated agendas.

But irrespective of the current election outcomes this narrative, which I think you have correctly described, is a distinct threat to progressives.  The day of the dove is gone, I believe we need to be enlightened 'realists.'

by Shaun Appleby 2007-12-05 04:34PM | 0 recs
Oh, I Left Out Edwards...

Another dissenting opinion at the recent NPR debate:


On Tuesday, however, Clinton sparred mainly with former senator John Edwards (N.C.), who accused her of taking a step toward war when she voted in September for a resolution labeling the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps a terrorist organization.

The disagreement came after a new intelligence report directly contradicted assertions by administration officials about the growing nuclear threat from Iran, and produced a clear divide between Clinton and six other Democrats who debated here.

"Senator Clinton and I just have an honest disagreement about this, but a very strong disagreement. I think it's very clear that Bush and Cheney have been rattling the saber about Iran for a very long time, and I said very clearly when this vote took place on the Iranian Revolutionary Guard that it was important for us to stand up to them," Edwards said.

Dan Balz and Anne E Kornblut - Washington Post 5 Dec 07

Just to be fair, he has also maintained a clear distinction with Hillary on this point.

by Shaun Appleby 2007-12-05 03:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama on Iran

1) Obama's desire to negotiate unconditionally directly undermines the efforts of Israel and the Arab League to isolate the Iranian/Syria/Hezbollah/Hamas nexus that threatens Lebanese sovereinty and the security of the Middle East. That Obama does not have the intelligence to recognize this point instantly defines him as unqualified for the Presidency.

2) Europe and Israel both say the NIE is wrong. Given the stellar record of our intelligence agencies of late, maybe we should stop the huzzahs and take another look.

by ThinkingDem 2007-12-05 05:57AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama on Iran

you're just making shit up now.

by jello 2007-12-05 07:27AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama on Iran

lies: Obama's desire to negotiate unconditionally directly undermines the efforts of Israel and the Arab League to isolate the Iranian/Syria/Hezbollah/Hamas

the reality : The article, by George Soros, published in the New York Review of Books, asserts that America should pressure Israel to negotiate with the Hamas-led unity government in the Palestinian territories regardless of whether Hamas recognizes the right of the Jewish state to exist. Mr. Soros goes on to say that one reason America has not embraced this policy is because of the influence of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee.

Yesterday, Mr. Obama's presidential campaign issued a dissent from the Hungarian-born billionaire's assessment. "Mr. Soros is entitled to his opinions," a campaign spokeswoman, Jen Psaki, said. "But on this issue he and Senator Obama disagree. The U.S. and our allies are right to insist that Hamas -- a terrorist organization dedicated to Israel's destruction -- meet very basic conditions before being treated as a legitimate actor. AIPAC is one of many voices that share this view."

http://www.nysun.com/article/50846

by jello 2007-12-05 07:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama on Iran

another snippet for the reactionaryrepublican:

Rep. Robert Wexler, a Democrat of Florida who sent out an e-mail to Jewish supporters in his home state last week vouching for Mr. Obama's pro-Israel bona fides, said he too rejected Mr. Soros's comments. "Senator Obama says until the Palestinian government fulfills all three of the quartet requirements, the United States should not and would not recognize the Palestinian government. Senator Obama is clear, Mr. Soros appears to have a different position," Mr. Wexler said. "I agree with Senator Obama and have felt that way for a long time.

by jello 2007-12-05 07:47AM | 0 recs
another thing

stop pretending to be a democrat.

by jello 2007-12-05 07:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama on Iran

Well, firstly your initial comment raises a whole range of implications, many of which are, to my mind, highly controversial and disputable.  I would be happy to discuss them in more detail, but your assessment that Obama does not have the intelligence to recognize this point instantly defines him as unqualified for the Presidency makes me wonder if I would be wasting my time.

As for your second point, if you were a better ClickingDem you would have noticed that I included the most substantial 'second-look' at the NIE, namely the nearly dissenting IAEA statement, in the diary's leading paragraph.  Keep it clean.

by Shaun Appleby 2007-12-05 01:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama on Iran

Obama votes 'present' when his political calculations determine that it's dangerous to take a stand on an issue. And, he avoided taking a stand either way on the Iran resolution which named the Revolutionary Guard as a 'terrorist' organization (I personally opposed supporting this non-binding resolution, so differ with Clinton on her vote to support it). How do you justify his absence on the vote, except as political calculation? If he were following his own campaign rhetoric of being courageous enough to take unpopular stands; and if the vote were as important as he now says it was, (I agree with Clinton that) it begs the question: If the vote was a vote about war, shouldn't he have been there to oppose it?

In September 2004, Sen. Obama suggested to the Chicago Tribune editorial board that he would use surgical missile strikes against Iran, so why would he avoid a vote on a resolution dealing with Iran. Doesn't it raise some valid questions?

[T]he United States should not rule out military strikes to destroy nuclear production sites in Iran, Obama said. 'The big question is going to be, if Iran is resistant to these pressures, including economic sanctions, which I hope will be imposed if they do not cooperate, at what point are we going to, if any, are we going to take military action?" Obama asked. Given the continuing war in Iraq, the United States is not in a position to invade Iran, but missile strikes might be a viable option, he said.

by Tennessean 2007-12-05 06:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama on Iran

it wasn't like his stance was unknown. he wasn't being quiet about it. he spoke out against it before, during and after the vote took place.

by jello 2007-12-05 07:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama on Iran

Senator Obama issued an unequivocal statement on the subject of Kyl/Lieberman on the day, that is hardly the same as a 'present' vote:


Senator Obama clearly recognizes the serious threat posed by Iran. However, he does not agree with the president that the best way to counter that threat is to keep large numbers of troops in Iraq, and he does not think that now is the time for saber-rattling towards Iran. In fact, he thinks that our large troop presence in Iraq has served to strengthen Iran - not weaken it. He believes that diplomacy and economic pressure, such as the divestment bill that he has proposed, is the right way to pressure the Iranian regime. Accordingly, he would have opposed the Kyl-Lieberman amendment had he been able to vote today.

Ben Smith - Politico 26 Sep 07

by Shaun Appleby 2007-12-05 02:21PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama on Iran

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid urged Bush to announce "a top-to-bottom review of his Iran policy" and launch a "diplomatic surge" on the country.

where the hell is that phase 2 we were promised, mr. reid?

by jello 2007-12-05 07:36AM | 0 recs
Obama: All Carrots No Sticks

We know Obama thinks his smile, charisma and mere presence are carrots for Iran, but what are his sticks? My betting is that he will be using the sanctions against the Iranian Special Guard (Kuds' Forces), which Hillary stuck her neck out to vote for. Otherwise what are his sticks? Whatever else one may think of them Iranians are first class negotiators and diplomats. They know how to stall, chip away, surrender when necessary and just as easily continue.

The Iranians will be quick to take the measure of a would be President Obama and find to their pleasure they are dealing with Jimmy Carter 2.0. Obama loves to see himself as a peacemaker, he loves to be thought of as a  good, good, man. A pristine family man, whose need to thought of as a good, good man transcends dirtying his hands in the rough and tumble of hard negotiating for his country. Obama's good, goodness must be recognized at all costs, even above the national security of his country. This would be President needs to be thought of a cool intellectual and brilliant. He loves to patted on the head for his good, good diplomacy. He prefers to leave the  dirty work of stick making to others, like Hillary Clinton. Given his appetite for lack of confrontation and a need to seen as a good, good, man. If I were part of Iran's national security apparatus I would advise moving full speed ahead on a covert plan to develop nuclear weapons the very day after a would be President Obama is elected, on the premise that he has no appetite for confrontation whatsoever.

If I were Iran, I would judge that a man such as Obama whose ego is so wrapped up with his image as a peacemaker would be slow to make an about turn to a more aggressive stance. So if I were Iran, yes, by all means welcome a would be president Obama to Iran. Stoke his ego, we  will give him rare Persian sweets, allow him to sit among the scholars of Isfahan, we will invite him into parts of our fabled mosques that no foreigner has seen. And as an esteemed would be President Obama struts onto Air Force One, feted by Maureen Dowd, Chris Matthews, Frank Rich and the Brezinski clan, I would quietly return to making as much enriched uranium as Iran could in the first year of a would be Obama presidency.

by superetendar 2007-12-05 07:37AM | 0 recs
so, it looks like your position is...

sticks and then more sticks.  Send in your application, the Bush Administration is always looking for new people.

Your second sentence is the answer to your first sentence.

by mboehm 2007-12-05 07:57AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: All Carrots No Sticks

Wow, you think Zbigniew Brzezinski, the man who baited the USSR into invading Afghanistan, is some kind of pie-in-the-sky dove?

This has to be about the most superficial analysis of any candidate I have ever read.  Your image of Obama is simply cartoonish.

by Steve M 2007-12-05 09:53AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: All Carrots No Sticks

Um do you mean Brzezinski, Jimmy Carter's national security advisor? That intellectual romantic and foreign policy hired gun who helped set off those florid color revolutions that have run aground? The Soviet and now Russia obessed hawk who forever misses the mark? Give me Strobe Talbot or Holbrooke any day.

by superetendar 2007-12-05 03:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: All Carrots No Sticks

Your missing the point, Brzezinski is an unreconstructed 'realist,' not an ideologue.

by Shaun Appleby 2007-12-05 03:08PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: All Carrots No Sticks

the foreign policy MINORITY who endorse hillary also played her game of providing cover for bush. i still can't believe  madeleine albright engaged in french bashing for their opposition to the war, falling right in fashion alongside the neocons.

the foreign policy wonks who endorse obama were smart enough to oppose bush's folly from the beginning.

by jello 2007-12-05 04:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: All Carrots No Sticks

Um do you mean Brzezinski, Jimmy Carter's national security advisor? That intellectual romantic and foreign policy hired gun who helped set off those florid color revolutions that have run aground? The Soviet and now Russia obessed hawk who forever misses the mark? Give me Strobe Talbot or Holbrooke any day.

by superetendar 2007-12-05 03:05PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: All Carrots No Sticks

Well, Brzezinski's an interesting case and seems to understand how things work pretty well:


Brzezinski also became a leading critic of the Bush administration's "war on terror." Some painted him as a neoconservative because of his links to Paul Wolfowitz and his 1997 book The Grand Chessboard. Brzezinski wrote The Choice in 2004 which expanded upon The Grand Chessboard but sharply criticized the Bush administration's foreign policy. He has defended the paper The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy. He has been outspoken in his criticism of the 2003 invasion of Iraq and the subsequent conduct of the war.

Wikipedia - Zbigniew Brzezinski

Personally, I still have a lot of time for ol' Brent Scowcroft:


Even without Israeli involvement, the results could well destabilize Arab regimes in the region, ironically facilitating one of Saddam's strategic objectives. At a minimum, it would stifle any cooperation on terrorism, and could even swell the ranks of the terrorists. Conversely, the more progress we make in the war on terrorism, and the more we are seen to be committed to resolving the Israel-Palestinian issue, the greater will be the international support for going after Saddam.

Brent Scowcroft - Don't Attack Saddam 15 Aug 02

Kind of makes Scowcroft and Obama like a couple of book-ends with a whole collection of popular junk fiction in between.

by Shaun Appleby 2007-12-05 05:18PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: All Carrots No Sticks

I don't agree with your comment, but I uprated it because I don't think it should have been hidden.

by LakersFan 2007-12-05 01:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: All Carrots No Sticks

Yeah I wondered where it went.

by superetendar 2007-12-05 03:07PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: All Carrots No Sticks

I'm betting he won't, that strikes me as a ridiculous response.  Obama's suggestions have always relied on economic sanctions of the kind we now see have apparently been having a positive effect, without raising the bar to further diplomacy as the Kyl/Lieberman amendment has done.

The rest of your comment seems to be a 'straw man' argument within a subjective ad hominem attack which I won't further embarrass you by validating with a response.  You have a vivid imagination, to be sure, but perhaps should consider writing popular fiction rather than political commentary.

by Shaun Appleby 2007-12-05 01:59PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: All Carrots No Sticks

Thank you Shaun for the backhanded compliment, but I prefer satire to fiction or political commentary, it tends to get to the heart of the matter.

"Satire has always shone among the rest,
And is the boldest way, if not the best,
To tell men freely of their foulest faults,
To laugh at their vain deeds and vainer thoughts."

Courtesy of Dryden

by superetendar 2007-12-05 03:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: All Carrots No Sticks

Well, I certainly agree and wasn't trying to be entirely critical in my 'compliment,' you obviously have a way with words.  Perhaps you'll enjoy this.

by Shaun Appleby 2007-12-05 04:47PM | 0 recs
Just For the Record


"One critical tool in applying pressure on the Iranian government is divestment. Our friends in Florida and in my home state of Illinois have joined a grassroots movement and passed laws to divest their pension plans of businesses that invest in Iran's energy sector. Florida's actions alone will stop $1.3 billion from going into the Iranian budget. But these efforts could be stopped if the bipartisan Iran Sanctions Enabling Act is not passed by the Congress. This strong, bipartisan bill would authorize these divestment efforts and shine a light on companies who do business with Iran. Its only obstacle is a single Senator who placed an anonymous "hold" on the bill.

Senator Obama - Statement to Rally Opposing Iran's Nuclear Ambitions  24 Sep 07

by Shaun Appleby 2007-12-05 02:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Just For the Record

Coulda, woulda, shoulda--I rest my case with Obama. Hillary's Kyl-Liberman vote directly gets to the heart of the matter by sanctions denying the business interests of the Kuds force. By they way do you know of any proper standing army that directly runs its own businesses? Further the Kuds force is being used by Ahmedinijad as a way of challenging the power of the relatively more moderate and cautious mullahs by making Kuds his personal fiefdom and using it to award lucrative contracts to his more radical supporters. I'm sure even the mullahs would be glad for this check on Ahmedinijad.

by superetendar 2007-12-05 03:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Just For the Record

Firstly, the Qods Force was the organisation the State Department listed, Kyl/Lieberman targeted the IRG as a whole.  Secondly, the IRG does not report to Ahmedinijad but to Khamenei, which is significant, so you have that all wrong and should now understand the problem with Kyl/Lieberman.  And thirdly, Indonesia is a perfect example of a proper standing army that directly runs its own businesses including the timber industry which is destroying one of the last remaining significant rainforests, there are probably many other nations with a similarly entrepreneurial military caste.  Pakistan springs to mind.  As I said, your position would be more credible with a little more basis in fact.

by Shaun Appleby 2007-12-05 03:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Just For the Record

Ahmedinijad is increasingly challenging Khamenei's hold on the IRG, even ordering the daring and foolhardy capture of those hapless British soldiers many months ago, granted Khamenei won that little skirmish by making Ahmedinijad release the sailors, but that has not stopped Ahmedinijad trying to take on Kahmenei by eating away at his power base.  

Much as I admire the Pakistan army as a decent fighting force I would hardly qualify them as a proper standing army precisely because of their dangerous and frankly undemocratic habit of merging Pakistan's military and commercial interests. Same goes for the brutal Indonesian army. Both are hardly exemplars for emerging democracies.

by superetendar 2007-12-05 04:32PM | 0 recs
Re: Just For the Record

I was just giving you the examples you were asking for.  And as for Ahmedinijad and Khamenei, I don't think there is any challenge there.  Ahmedinijad, like all Iranian presidents, is a 'made' man and can be unmade at the stroke of a pen, or a grey beard.

by Shaun Appleby 2007-12-05 04:57PM | 0 recs
Re: Just For the Record

Frankly your lack of understanding of the Iranian political structure gives you no credibility here. Khomeini for all intents and purposes holds all the cards. The only policy Amhadjid has any influence what so ever is domestic economic policy. The Ayatollah declares peace, war and can just as easily as Amhadjid was "elected" he can kick him out. Do some research before you try and attack people.

by SocialDem 2007-12-05 05:33PM | 0 recs
Obama: All Carrots No Sticks

Obama clearly believes carrots are his smile, charisma and very presence. But what are his sticks? I'm betting if the carrot thing does not work out he'll be grabbing the stick provided by Hillary's vote for sanctions against the Iranian Revolutionary Guard (Kud's Forces), which she stuck her neck out for.

In taking the measure of a would be President Obama, the Iranian side will be delighted to reach  the conclusion that they have Jimmy Carter 2.0 on their hands. Obama loves to be thought of as the peacemaker, the concilliator, the uniter, and above all Obama likes to think of himself as a good, good, man. Such a good, good man, a uniter would be loathe to dirty
his hands with using sticks. Obama's unblemished reputation as a carrot man would have to be preserved at all costs. Stick making is for the likes of Hillary Clinton. Reason and those special Charisma Carrots will be Obama's diplomatic weapons. Having concluded that Obama loves carrots, Iran will be getting those uranium factories going double-quick in the first year of a distracted and carrot-obsessed Obama Presidency.

Those clever Iranians would do a masterful job playing to Obama's peace maker's ego, while those Uranium factories start getting stoked. Imagine an Obama visit to Iran staged by the crafty Iranians. All thoughts of national security would be dulled as the New York Times is aglow with news of Obama being received in Iran as if a descendent of Emperor Darius
had returned. Persian Poems would be composed in his honor as "the Peacemaker," scholars at Isfahan would marvel at his mind, Obama would be invited to see Iran's fabled mosques and allowed to enter parts no white foreigner has ever seen, and all the while the uranium factories would be stoking
away. And just as Obama struts his stuff on to Air Force One, mission accomplished, America once again loved, and words of praise dripping from the lips of Frank Rich, Maureen Dowd and Mika Brezinski, Iran's uranium factories will also have a good year, secure in the good fortune of having a carrot-obsessed, confrontation averse President Obama to deal with.

by superetendar 2007-12-05 09:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: All Carrots No Sticks

the conclusion that they have Jimmy Carter 2.0 on their hands.

you don't have any shame maligning jimmy carter and insinuating rightwing talking points?

by jello 2007-12-05 09:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: All Carrots No Sticks

By any objective standards, Jimmy Carter is a nice, good, good, man, who tried to do his best by everyone. But these pious traits did him in and led him towards cul de sacs he never intended to go down. Arguably Carter was dealt a bad hand, but we brutally expect our presidents to rise to the occasion, unfortunately Carter could not. Worryingly, Obama has the same pious tendencies. Good for a preacher bad for a president.

by superetendar 2007-12-05 10:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: All Carrots No Sticks

excuse me, but your portrayal of jimmy carter as some sort of patsy is incorrect. it was carter's initiative to support guerilla forces to counter russians overtaking afghanistan. something reagan took credit for.

and the hostages from iran would have returned home earlier if it weren't for reagan negotiating under the table with the hostage takers to keep the americans longer. what would you have carter do? nuke the place?

obama has already stated he would launch attacks against pakistan if actionable intelligence pointed to bin laden being there. that isn't "all carrot and no stick" as you keep insisting.

by jello 2007-12-05 10:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: All Carrots No Sticks

Yes, but Carter was, with few exceptions mostly  reactive to crises. Obama has that tendency too, so he sees Hillary's proactive sanctions against the Iranian guard as too aggressive something a man like him with hopeful ideals would never do. I'm just wary of anyone selling "goodness" and "hope" as part of the personal bag of tricks they bring to diplomacy that's all.

by superetendar 2007-12-05 10:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: All Carrots No Sticks

obama on meet the press:

MR. RUSSERT:  I want to talk about Iran, because there's been a discussion about a vote she cast that you mentioned earlier.  Back in March there was a resolution in the Senate, and here's what it said:  "The Secretary of State should designate the Iranian Revolutionary Guards as a Foreign Terrorist Organization." And you voted for that.

[...]

RUSSERT: If Iran did not stop meddling in Iraq, did not cooperate on terrorism issues, and did not stop development of their nuclear program, would, then, regime change be on the table for you?

SEN. OBAMA:  I have repeatedly said I would not take military options off the table.

by jello 2007-12-05 11:40AM | 0 recs
you know better

Goodness and hope are marketing tactics/labels that have been proven to work.  Look, you've got to get elected first.  He's trying to pull off one of the greatest upsets in American history.

Read Obama's major foreign policy addresses this year and you will see that he is no wet noodle.  Look at the foreign policy establishment and thinkers that he has attracted.  Consider the symbolism of an Obama Presidency.  Review his judgment about some of the major issues of the day.

You are not being fair when you dismiss him so easily.

by mboehm 2007-12-05 12:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: All Carrots No Sticks

another thing, maureen dowd has ridiculed obama too, being the equal opportunity offender that she is, so you're mistaken in counting her as some sort of obama ally.

by jello 2007-12-05 10:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: All Carrots No Sticks

Oh please, Maureen Dowd treats the Golden Child Prodigy Obama with the tender hands of an impatient mother. With Hillary, Dowd morphs into a hatchet woman who can't wait to hurl the verbal ax into Hillary's back.

by superetendar 2007-12-05 10:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: All Carrots No Sticks

You liked your comment so much you posted it again?  I think perhaps you have more sense of adventure than propriety.

by Shaun Appleby 2007-12-05 02:04PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: All Carrots No Sticks

Well, the first comment disappeared into some black hole of censorship but I see democracy has been restored. Hurray!

by superetendar 2007-12-05 03:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: All Carrots No Sticks

Sorry, I didn't realise.  I certainly don't support your comments being zeroed but wonder if you could direct your passion away from subjective attacks on candidates to more issues oriented discussions.  It really is much more convincing.

by Shaun Appleby 2007-12-05 03:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: All Carrots No Sticks

No offense taken unfortunately I have a weakness for satire, however I will try to curb the more outlandish moments but if Obama wins New Hampshire all bets are off.

by superetendar 2007-12-05 04:41PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama: All Carrots No Sticks

Sometimes my weakness for satire is truly weak .  No excuses.

by Shaun Appleby 2007-12-05 04:54PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama BFF-Durbin voted with Clinton on Iran

Dick Durbin:
"If I thought there was any way it could be used as a pretense to launch an invasion of Iran I would have voted no,'' Durbin said in an interview.
 "I am opposed to military action in Iran," Durbin said, noting that it would require congressional approval. "To say we need to pressure the Iranians to change their course in the Middle East and I want to do it by nonmilitary means, that's what my vote was all about.''

All Presidential political rhetoric for the boys-

by ExperienceCounts 2007-12-05 03:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama BFF-Durbin voted with Clinton on Iran

Durbin is up for election in this cycle and is probably courting the AIPAC lobby.  It is tough to oppose, just ask Hillary.

by Shaun Appleby 2007-12-05 03:53PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama BFF-Durbin voted with Clinton on Iran

sy hersh didn't mince words calling hillary out on that.

http://doctrinewars.blogspot.com/2007/10 /hillary-clinton-and-money-lot-of-jewish .html

by jello 2007-12-05 07:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama BFF-Durbin voted with Clinton on Iran

Yeah, thanks, I wasn't kidding.  Thanks for holding the fort here when the diary went up, I had to turn in and leave it to fend for itself.

by Shaun Appleby 2007-12-05 08:56PM | 0 recs
Re: Obama BFF-Durbin voted with Clinton on Iran

everybody else:

3. Many other progressive leaders plus Chuck Hagel and Dick Lugar voted against the Iran bill.

If the bill was not as potentially harmful as Hillary and her blogger friends are implying then why did the following people also oppose it?

Chuck Hagel, Jim Webb, Tom Harkin, John Kerry, Joe Biden, Barbara Boxer, Sherrod Brown, Robert Byrd, Christopher Dodd, Russ Feingold, Ted Kennedy, Richard Lugar, Claire McCaskill, Jon Tester, Patrick Leahy, John Edwards, Bill Richardson

http://thinkonthesethings.wordpress.com/ 2007/10/11/did-obama-skip-the-iran-vote/

by jello 2007-12-05 04:01PM | 0 recs

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