Edwards and Obama

The other night in a Manhattan bar, I was with a group of Democrats--smart, political but not politically active Democrats. They were all, I discovered, Obama leaners. They didn't love him but they liked him. Why, I asked. He's something new. What do you mean? I asked. He'll change things. How so? He's black. That's a good reason to support him, I said, and I meant it. He's eloquent, someone said. Definitely, I said. Two people said they felt much better about Obama because he'd been blessed by Frank Rich.

Oy.

It's been quite an achievement, convincing voters that you're an agent of bold change without proposing bold change, selling yourself as a bold truthteller without telling any bold truths. But then most voters don't do a lot of reading or research, much less deep thinking. Elections are won on impressions, feelings, vibes, and if people think Obama represents change, then he does.

Granted, Obama isn't an easy case. He gives everyone something to like. (I, for one, like what he says about our criminal justice system.) If elected he would have to make choices that disappoint either Michael Eric Dyson or Andrew Sullivan but for now he's keeping them both enraptured. And in one sense, he does represent change. It's silly to deny that with Obama at the helm, the country would, at least for a while, look and feel different to people around the world. And to Americans. For what that's worth.

But that's not merely what Obama is promising. He's promising transcendence, a magical release from partisan nastiness. Good luck! I'm sure Obama's palpable decency and empathy will lead corporate power and its political benefactors in Congress to lay down their political guns. He's selling unity and hope, yet what he's proposing to do wouldn't create much of either. It's progressive policies, not good intentions or expressed desires, that create unity and hope. Obama wouldn't even roll back Bush's tax cuts for the rich; he'd keep them in place until they expire in 2011. Very unifying. The unacceptable status quo--in which the powerful are way too powerful--will only be strengthened if it is ratified by a black "liberal" president. That's my fear.

You can argue that as a black man, he has to tell the guardians of the establishment what they want to hear. Nothing if not a skilled pol, he knows what he's doing when he stresses his Christianity, his opposition to Tom Hayden Democrats, his support for free trade, his belief in American exceptionalism. Maybe he's playing the powers-that-be for fools, attempting to smuggle a Trojan Horse of progressivism into the White House. Maybe he would emerge as the excellent progressive he used to be. I hope so. If he's a transformational progressive, surely it's not too much to ask that he run as one. There's not a single issue of importance on which he's running to the left of Edwards.

Yet Edwards, for better for worse, hasn't challenged Obama. He's criticized him around the edges--taking him to task for his cautious health care plan and his penchant for compromise--but he hasn't contested the central claim of his candidacy: that he represents a break with the corporatized establishment represented by Hillary. If anything, Edwards has strengthened Obama's anti-establishment cred with statements like: "Sen. Obama ... is not taking lobbyist money in this campaign. I think also on some of the substantive issues we're closer than I am with Sen. Clinton."

That, of course, is a factually correct statement, and I have no doubt that Edwards sincerely prefers Obama to Hillary. Still, Edwards could have established an equally valid line of argument that called into question Obama's anti-establishment, anti-corporate cred, one that pointed to his vote for Bush's lobbyist-written energy bill, his support for class action "reform," his championing of liquified coal, his persistent support for nuclear power, his K-Street project, his most recent support for the Shafta "free" trade model, his possibly legal bribery of pols in the early nominating states, etc.

Mention any of these things to Obama supporters, and they will dutifully mention Edwards's support for the war or some other bad vote he cast when he was in the Senate. Or they will point to Obama's voting record. What they want to avoid is a comparison of the positions, beliefs, and preoccupations at the heart of their campaigns--how they are choosing to run and proposing to govern. Edwards thoroughly rejects the corporate-friendly neoliberalism characterized by fealty to "free" trade and budget austerity. Obama doesn't. Edwards tips over establishment sacred cows like the so-called War on Terror and the 1996 Welfare Reform Act. Obama props them up. Edwards preaches the importance of the labor movement everywhere he goes; Obama couldn't bring himself to even mention unions in his speech to the DNC.

In a devastating piece on Obama, Paul Street says:

He stands to the right of John Edwards' more genuinely and substantively populist variant of progressivism... and possibly now even to the right of Hillary Clinton.

You need not be an ardent leftist like Street to question Obama's progressivism and commitment to political battle. Just about every month he delivers a warning sign to progressives, and every time progressives manage to be surprised. Joe Lieberman. "Playing chicken with out troops."Donnie McClerkin. The Move On Vote. The silence on Kyl-Lieberman. The social security "crisis." The country as a whole doesn't know about these things. (The MSM, in Obama's campa for now, could have used the McClerkin controversy to quash his candidacy.) But we do. Progressives know about these things, and so we fear--or should fear--that an Obama general election campaign and presidency would be lackluster, if not maddening.

Of course, there's politics in JRE's decision to go easy on Obama. His campaign sees Hillary as his most direct competitor in Iowa, especially in rural areas, which have disproportionate power in the caucuses. The idea is: beat Hillary in the rural areas, surge past both her and Obama to victory. Brilliant strategy. If it works.

Down the stretch Edwards won't be doing much criticizing of his rivals, but he shouldn't eschew it altogether. The Peru Trade Deal provides an opening: Clinton and Obama were the only candidates in the field to support it. I like what Edwards said in his statement, and I hope it finds its way into his speeches.

By supporting this agreement, Senator Clinton and Senator Obama have sent a powerful message to workers across America that they're willing to put the profits of Wall Street over the interests of Main Street.

Voters have a choice in this election. Do they want someone who will defend the broken system, someone who will continue the trade policies that have devastated communities like the one I grew up in? Or do we want someone with the strength and courage to stand up to the corporate interests and their lobbyists?

Tags: Barack Obama, Change, hope, John Edwards, progressive policies, unity (all tags)

Comments

89 Comments

Re: Edwards and Obama

A lot of people will perceive of your post as hate filled because  you are being direct. But, I think this is an incredibly strong substantive critique of the weakness of Obama's candidacy when compared to Edwards. And you are right, there is a dependency of the Obama campaign on relying on acts prior to his beind in the Senate to tell us how he will govern as President. It's like his time in the Senate doesn't count for him, but does for Edwards.

by bruh21 2007-12-11 06:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

Obama's not telling any "bold truths," huh?  I don't remember Edwards going to Detroit and saying he wants to raise CAFE standards and telling the Big 3 that they did their hardships to themselves.  I remember Edwards pandering to those unions though by telling them that we can go back to the future and become a manufacturing economy again.

by freepursuits 2007-12-11 06:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

As a Democrat, I would rather that he pander to the unions than to other interests. I suppose it comes down to what you value.

by bruh21 2007-12-11 06:30AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

Right, well Obama stages are few moment where he can demonstrate courage, like when he said he supports merit pay in front of the teacher's unions.

This is meant to show that he not captive to those horrible interest groups.

by david mizner 2007-12-11 06:59AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

No, it is meant to show he is in favor of merit pay and is willing to be honest with those most impacted about it.  How can we ever have an honest conversation if we endorse pandering and criticize honesty?   What would you prefer him to do?  You create a box of cynicism where he is at fault no matter what he does.  

by Piuma 2007-12-11 07:17AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

No, I'm saying that those things he endorses--like merit pay--are hardly bold or groundbreaking. To declare that position in front of a teacher's union is to show the MSM and the establishment that he isn't captive. It's actually of a piece with his attempts to appear non-threatening to the established order. Now if he went around the country pledging to move 300 billion dollars from the Pentagon  into the education budget to create smaller classes--that would be bold. But merit pay? Come on.

by david mizner 2007-12-11 07:22AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

And they are all the issues that the media village support.

Every one, every time.

That is their campaigns major plan.  

Win the media to win the nomination.

and keep reminding them to hate those nasty Clintons.

by Seymour Glass 2007-12-11 07:40AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

Because being in favor of merit pay itself can be considered pandering. That's the problem with playing the game you are playing with choice of words.

by bruh21 2007-12-11 07:22AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

Yes, exactly.  Watch any of the Democratic debates and you will see that the standard election ritual is to test the willingness of Democrats to distance themselves from the traditional Democratic interest groups.

by Steve M 2007-12-11 07:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

Right, That's how Tim Russert measures courage.

by david mizner 2007-12-11 07:54AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

The only bold truth with which I am concerned is Obama's willingness to campaign with a known homophobe.  

by truthteller2007 2007-12-11 07:58AM | 0 recs
oy is right

After what Frank Rich did to Gore in 2000

Anybody he and his crowd are for -

I GOTTA be against.

And as to Maureen Dowd...

by Seymour Glass 2007-12-11 06:26AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

I'm starting to feel good again about Edwards' chances. I thought he hurt himself by getting away from the 2 Americas theme & instead focusing on the poor. The former resonates with working class while the latter does not.

I think Hillary & Obama  will cut themselves up in Iowa, much like Dean & Gephard did last time around, & this will lead to Edwards coming out on top. With momentum, he has very decent chances in NH & S. Carolina & Nevada. One of the great attractions of Edwards is that independents & moderate Repubs like him, which translates into really doing well in the swing states. Obama & Hillary are a drag on the ticket & lessen our chances for sizeable gains in the House & Senate.

by carter1 2007-12-11 06:26AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

There is a big difference between promising transcendence and offering a vision, and you know it.  You say something like "Mention any of these things to Obama supporters, and they will dutifully mention Edwards's support for the war or some other bad vote he cast when he was in the Senate" and then go on to dismiss this as meaningless.  He co-sponsored the War, said as a member of the Intelligence committee he knew there were WMD, and went further to justify war on the grounds of national security against Terrorists.  It may be true the War on Terrorism is a bumper-sticker, but in 2002 he plastered his car with them.  This is not a small issue.  

by Piuma 2007-12-11 06:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

I don't dismiss JRE"s vote for the war as meaningless. Not at all. But it seems to me that a minimum requirement for enacting bold change is to propose it.

by david mizner 2007-12-11 07:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

You don't dismiss it, and then proceed to dismiss with the same meaningless rhetoric Edwards could be giving us.  If you don't dismiss it, how does it impact you?  The man didn't just vote for it he championed it using every rhetorical trick that he now objects to.  How will that play out in the GE?  And let's be honest at the risk of insulting the guy.  We all know, his vote and Clinton's, were both political calculations based on their ambition.  And poor ones at that.

by Piuma 2007-12-11 07:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

To me, it matters a lot that he said it was a mistake.

Look, it would be dishonest to pretend that he didn't try to move to the center during the first few years of his senate term. But so did every leading Democrat in the mid to late 90s, early 2000s. That is a large part of why progressives became so distrustful of the Democratic party leadership.

Some were that leadership (and now claim they represent change), some continue to abide that leadership (to me its not inconsequential that the leading DC backer of Obama is Daschle) and some abandoned it and turned against it. To me, thats why Edwards is credible. Its not that he was always perfect; its that he can plausibly make the case in specific terms about how our democracy is broken and how the system itself, not just the policies it produces, has to change.

by desmoulins 2007-12-11 07:47AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

"To me, it matters a lot that he said it was a mistake."

Except that he campaigns on it.  If he just said it and left it at that, maybe.  But he campaigns against Clinton with his 'apology' or whatever.

I don't put any stock in anything any politician says with their mouth - O, E or C, it means nothing.

It's the fights they've fought and won.  Clinton fights on healthcare, loses, then comes back and wins on SCHIP.  She fights Reagan and wins on legal services for the poor.  She fights Newt Gingrich on impeachment, Bill's approval skyrockets and Gingrich retires.  She fights Edelman on planning for troop withdrawal.

by Canaan 2007-12-11 10:55PM | 0 recs
History books will mention little...

if anything of Edwards and the Democrats when it comes to the Iraq War.  Bush will be seen as someone who dishonestly led the country into war.

It was not Edwards who helped convince 70% the country, in November, 2003, that Saddam was responsible for 9-11.

It is Bush and his crowd who are culpable here.  That it is necessary to look for others to blame is beyond me, and unconvincing based on historical facts and context.

by citizen53 2007-12-11 07:53AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

His vote can't be dismissed, and nor can those of Obama that occured later. The problem isn't that we are dismissing it- it's that we are are looking at all the decisions both then and  now.

by bruh21 2007-12-11 07:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

Edwards only became a progressive once he started running for president.

I look at Edwards as the Democratic Mitt Romney who had to flip flop on a bunches of issue to get in line with the liberal wing of the party.

Let me remind Mizner that Edwards ran as a pro-war democrat in 2004...He was perceived as a centrist/conservative/moderate democrats inn 2004 and may Iowans believed that a rhetorical liberal like Howard Dean wouldnt be able to beat Bush.

Edwards also made a strong argument to Kerry that they should stick to their pro-war vote and it wasnt until he had decided to run again in 2008 that he flip flipped on the war because it had become unpopular.

So while Mizner can rant about Obama not being progressive , he should never forget that your guy was the biggest pro-war hawk in the senate and ran as a DLC in 2004.

If your house is made of glass , dont throw rocks...Edwards has to credebility on progressiveness...The guy was clearly a moderate centrist democrat and now , he knows he can win like this , so he's rebranded himself into a all out liberal...Im not buying it.

by Prodigy 2007-12-11 06:37AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

You're absolutely wrong. Most people who say this refer to his votes on the Iraq resolution & homeland security. However, he was representing N. Carolina, a conservative pro-military state. At the time of his vote, the country was on a fever pitch on Iraq & homeland security. Unlike Hillary, who represented a state where she could have voted against, Edwards would have been ridden out of town on a rail if he voted against either.  

Edwards has always been an economic populist, someone who believes we have to rein in corporate excesses & make the country work for those in the bottom two-thirds.  He's pro union, wants to dramatically change the NAFTA-like legislation that doesn't benefit workers & disentangle us from all these foreign adventures.

by carter1 2007-12-11 06:55AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

I'm not following you.  Are you saying Clinton was gung-ho for the war?  I thought her vote was a 'live to fight another day' retreat on behalf of the Democratic Party.  Her seat wasn't at risk, but the Dems would have been 'ridden out of town on a rail' -- imagine what the Patriot Act would look like today.

Remember, they didn't know for certain that S did not have WMDs, so they didn't know how the politics would play out.  But the worst case politically would have been 1) Dems oppose the war, lose badly in 2002, Bush gets war anyway, then 2) Bush finds WMDs.  In that scenario, Bush could repeal the War Powers Act, and we wouldn't be arguing over torture.

Just looking at the politics (not the strategy, because the War was dumb even if S did have WMDs) - I can forgive Edwards and Clinton for their war votes.  I blame Bush.  They may have had their selfish reasons, but their votes coincide with at least a plausible 'ride out the 9/11 political tsunami' argument.

But I'm sorry, I think it's bogus to forgive Edwards and blame Clinton for the same vote.  And it doesn't help Edwards, it makes him look silly to the majority of voters.

by Canaan 2007-12-11 11:15PM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

I don't forget his record, but to me at least his leftward more is entirely convincing given his departure from his senate seat and other factors.

JRE is moving left, Obama is moving right, which do you prefer?

by david mizner 2007-12-11 07:01AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

In what sense is he moving right?  That's nonsense. I think the problem with these type of definitions is that they seek to do away with the sense of a core of values.  Obama, much more so than Edwards, is at his core a progressive democrat.  His entire life-path has been that.  We do not have to question his root.  And as he moves he seeks a way that is truly progressive, in the sense of moving forward.  

by Piuma 2007-12-11 07:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

Opposing the death penalty before he supported it.

Supporting universal health care before he proposed a plan that would leave millions uninsured.

Supporting defunding the war before he opposed it for months.

In other ways, I admit he's moved left, like his change of heart on CTL>

by david mizner 2007-12-11 07:56AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

Prodigy - You hit my problem with Edwards on the nail.  I agree with a lot of what he says but his positions over the years just don't match-up to his rhetoric of 2008 and that troubles me.  Whose to say where he will stand on things once elected?

I am not thrilled with all the positions of either Obama or Clinton but their rhetoric fits pretty well with their voting records over the years and for those reasons I am far more comfortable with either of them than Edwards.

by John Mills 2007-12-11 07:17AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

So you are saying that Obama's rhectoric against the war matches his votes for funding it?

by bruh21 2007-12-11 07:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

Absolutely.  You don't throw the troops into a mess, destroy a country and then skip out.  Clinton's vote in face value shows she had no understanding of the character of Bush and the guys around him.  People object to the words playing chicken with the troops, but that is what it would have been if there was de-funding without a withdrawal plan.  Bush doesn't give a shit about the lives of the soldiers and would have let their equipment fall behind even what it tragically was before he would have blinked.  The Congress who are beholden to protecting their citizens of their state would have blinked first.  When are we going to stop with the attacks on mere rhetoric and dealing with things in the abstract?  Yes, de-funding in 2005 would have been playing chicken with the troops.  Obama worked feverishly in trying to more the direction of the debate toward withdrawal and was praised by Feingold for doing so.

by Piuma 2007-12-11 07:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

That's a false right wing frame and pandering in and of itself. You start off with the faux premise that stopping the war now is per se about being against the troops. Your argument depends on a house of cards.

by bruh21 2007-12-11 07:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

Piuma - I agree with your thoughts.  I opposed this war from day one but now that we are there the idea of just de-funding it whether or not Bush will agree to a withdrawal plan seems completely unrealistic to me and perhaps dangerous.  The handwringing and debate around Iraq shows how hard it is to get out of this type of quagmire once you get it in.

It is why from my standpoint the key vote here was the one in 2002, not the ongoing funding battles.  

by John Mills 2007-12-11 08:05AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

Well the problem is that everything you say is a conventient distiction to make. Essentially by doign so it absolves yoru candidate. Notice no one supporting Edwards is trying to do that here?

by bruh21 2007-12-11 08:16AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

First of all I don't have a candidate.

Secondly, we disagree.  I am not for de-funding the war without tying it to a withdrawal plan. Period.  Since we can't either override a Bush veto or stop a fillibuster in the Senate, I don't know exactly what can be done within the law to stop this war until we have a new President.

by John Mills 2007-12-11 08:19AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

this is a diary about one candidate compared to another so its a bit bizzare to say you don't have a candidate and expected me not to have  made the assumption. second, it really doesn't change the convenience of your argument or indicate to me how your thinking absolves obama.

by bruh21 2007-12-11 09:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

I never said anywhere I was supporting Obama.  My original post says the following:

"I am not thrilled with all the positions of either Obama or Clinton but their rhetoric fits pretty well with their voting records over the years and for those reasons I am far more comfortable with either of them than Edwards."  How does this get me to being an Obama supporter?

I don't like Edwards because I don't believe his conversion is real.  I could be wrong but that's the way I feel and I will be choosing b/w either Clinton or Obama.

by John Mills 2007-12-11 09:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

We can argue all we want about a withdrawal plan but the key vote on the war was the one in 2002 and both Clinton and Edwards were wrong on it.  Obama was right on it even if he wasn't in the Senate at the time.  

With regards to future funding, I am all for tying it to a troop draw down plan which I am pretty sure Obama has both proposed and supported.  Since Bush won't sign this type of funding resolution and the Dems can't break a filibuster in the Senate on it, I am not exactly sure what people want Obama, Clinton, etc to do.  Should they just vote against all funding resolutions out of protest?  What good is that going to do other than making the politically active world feel good?  

Governing isn't always about posturing and the fact is in the end we will need to keep the troops supplied as long as they are in Iraq.  Bush has made it clear he is not bringing the troops home so I am focusing my efforts on electing a President in 2009 who will bring them home.  I still haven't decided who that is but I need to do so soon.

by John Mills 2007-12-11 07:56AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

I am not willing to cherry pick facts. I look at the good and bad of both candidates. That mean's if I look at the 2002 vote, then I am going to look at what's happened up until now. My arguments dont rely on denial. You should take a look at why yours do.

by bruh21 2007-12-11 08:05AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

Here is a factual/constitutional question - How do we get out of Iraq when we have a President who will veto all proposals to do so and when we do not have the votes to override the veto?

I opposed this war from day one but if I were a member of Congress, I would fight hard to have funding tied to a withdrawal plan.  I believe everyone of the Dem Pres candidates has voted this way.  However, if it was vetoed or fillibustered, I would vote for a funding bill because in the end I believe we have an obligation to provide the necessary supplies to the troops as long as they are in Iraq.

The facts are we don't have the votes to override Bush or stop a fillibuster.  While I think we should keep sticking it to Bush by sending him proposals he will veto, I am not for de-funding the war without a withdrawal plan.  I guess that puts me in the same place as both Obama and Clinton.

by John Mills 2007-12-11 08:16AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

the facts are you are ignoring obama's votes since he's been in office as a US Senator and no amount of back and forth will convince you to take into account.

by bruh21 2007-12-11 09:08AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

by the way- you confuse what you think may have happened with what may have happened if someoen had bothered to show leadership. someone with obama's star power in the senate perhaps?

by bruh21 2007-12-11 09:15AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

bruh21 - I repsect your opinion and as we have in the past it would be probably be best if we just agreed to disagree.

by John Mills 2007-12-11 09:25AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

It seems to me that Obama largely stopped being a progressive when he was began to run for pres.

by david mizner 2007-12-11 07:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

How?  What position has he changed from what he said before January.  I really don't get it David, the guy comes from grassroots progressive politics, has inspired thousands and thousands to become active in politics, has this country on the brink of standing up to the world and say this is what we as a nation stand for, equality, justice, and an active participant in the world community as a community.  And yet people are scratching around for a reason not to believe, to go with a man who when given his time in office failed us miserably.

by Piuma 2007-12-11 07:42AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

"Stopped being a progressive" may have been too much, but for one thing he went from supporting defunding to opposing it.

Incidentally, I think you prove my point for me. Here's your evidence that Obama is a progressive:

the guy comes from grassroots progressive politics, has inspired thousands and thousands to become active in politics, has this country on the brink of standing up to the world and say this is what we as a nation stand for, equality, justice, and an active participant in the world community as a community.

Sorry, but that's a very soft and circumstantial case for his progressivism.

by david mizner 2007-12-11 07:59AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

I don't know that he ever was a progressive. He gave a great speech against the war in 2002, but even as a community organizer and a law professor, he was not engaged in larger progressive causes on economic issues. Thats not a criticism, its actually a defense. I just think that a lot of people are looking only at the war vote and at the romance of a charismatic, eloquent hero (and an african-ameridan to boot!) when they say Obama is a progressive

by desmoulins 2007-12-11 07:57AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

A fair point--he's always been cautious, and he admits that he has a conservative streak.

Although he used to openly support a single payer health insurance and oppose the death penalty, and his opposition to defunding the war didn't jibe (at least to my eyes) with his previous opposition.

by david mizner 2007-12-11 08:01AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

Mizner is a poster child for limousine liberalism.  His life won't change because his little Milo won't ever have to go to war, or be on welfare.  To Mizner  policies are just topics of conversation over matzo ball soup, not decisions that affect whether you will have a job, go to school, or go to war.  He is, in fact, a traitor to liberalism.

by Javier Doval 2007-12-11 08:54AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

I consider this entirely inappropriate.

by Steve M 2007-12-11 09:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

Excellent! Antisemitism!

by david mizner 2007-12-11 09:55AM | 0 recs
Yep...

Get someone behind the computer screen and often the worst traits come out.

I assume this commenter is an Obama supporter.  Odd that he can support one minority yet make bigoted remarks about another.

by citizen53 2007-12-11 10:02AM | 0 recs
Re: Yep...

Let's see.  My real first name is Yitzak, my grandparents left Russia for Israel, but my mother moved to the states. And I am a member of AEPi.  You don't get much more jewish.

by Javier Doval 2007-12-11 10:29AM | 0 recs
Good for you...

but the comment was bigoted.

by citizen53 2007-12-11 10:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Yep...

So why make antisemitic cracks?

by david mizner 2007-12-11 10:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Yep...

You're a member of AEPI? Now that's funny.

And you're calling yourself a progressive.

by david mizner 2007-12-11 10:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Yep...

Wow, I didn't know there was a list of acceptable fraternities.  And I guess I have to watch what I eat for lunch.  For the record, I also like pizza (in fact its my fav) so I guess I better not discuss Giuliani while having a slice.

I am beginning to understand how and why the Clintons allowed the Rwandan genocide.  

by Javier Doval 2007-12-11 10:56AM | 0 recs
Re: Yep...

Fraternities are inherently backward, but you knew that, since you're such a leftist.

by david mizner 2007-12-11 10:59AM | 0 recs
Re: Yep...

LOL.  I am not a leftist, which sounds like someone who should be afraid of a late-night knock at the door.  I must say, you and I would probably be friends because I detect a sense of humor.  But you are terribly wrong with many of your views, and much too doctrinaire (which goes back to my original point).  Working people don't have that luxury.

And finally, are you telling me you've never had matzo ball soup?

by Javier Doval 2007-12-11 11:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

Prodigy, obviously, you paid no attention to Edwards' campaign in 2004. Remember the "Two Americas" speech? Maybe you heard about it, although you obviously didn't listen to a single syllable. That speech is completely consistent with Edwards' current campaign. Incidentally, how do you know that Edwards convinced Kerry to stick to his pro-war vote? Because self-serving Kerry staffers (furious with Edwards for not stepping aside for Kerry) said that to the N.Y. Times in 2007? Well, try checking what those same staffers were telling the Times in 2004, that Edwards (as VP candidate) was not an influential voice in the campaign.

by sherrylynn 2007-12-11 09:37AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

It's been hard to come by other Edwards supporters here in NYC.  There's a certain amount of cultural resonance, or lack thereof, at work.  The Southern accent seems to be an asset in most parts of the country, but definitely not in the Northeast.

by Steve M 2007-12-11 06:38AM | 0 recs
you need glasses...

so you can see who has the ball.  Obama doesn't have the ball.  Clinton has the ball although it does look like she is about to fumble it away. It's in both of our interests for HRC to finish third in Iowa- that's what you should be working on.  Pay closer attention to your candidate- you're off message.

by mboehm 2007-12-11 06:57AM | 0 recs
Re: you need glasses...

This is an apt comment that illustrates why this is such a fascinating primary. Obama absolutely needs Edwards in it to compete with Hilary in the early states but to drop out to beat her in the later states. Edwards suffers from Obama's success in the early states but needs Obama to help take Clinton down to where he can compete 1 on 1 against Clinton in the later states. Clinton fears a 1 on 1 against Edwards more than anything but seems to have taken for granted her ability to stay ahead of Obama in IA and NH.

by desmoulins 2007-12-11 08:00AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

I could not agree more. This country's problem is NOT partisanship but the reluctance to propose substantive changes. Obama will take it completely in the wrong direction, and I am very worried about his presidency. I am no Clinton fan, but at least she is partisan and her policies would be Democratic. That's not left enough for me, but it's still better.

by LeftistAddiction 2007-12-11 06:58AM | 0 recs
I am for Edwards

because he is the most likely to question the assumptions about globalization.  In fact, on this issue there is a pretty significant gulf between Edwards and both Obama (who leans for free trade) and Clinton.  

But the notion that he is some sort of closet right winger, or that he is to the right of Clinton strikes me as absurd.

It bothers me a lot that the candidate that I am going to fly a thousand miles for and knock on doors voted for the War in Iraq.  I understand it, but in no way shape of form do I think Obama is anything but a liberal.

by fladem 2007-12-11 07:15AM | 0 recs
Re: I am for Edwards

Thank you. I appreciate your post. I read so many Edwards supporters trying to paint Obama as practically a republican. Its SO frustrating.

by crackityjones 2007-12-11 07:22AM | 0 recs
Re: I am for Edwards

I disagree with the idea that Obama is some Republican in hiding, but I also disagree with teh notion that he is something new. He's clinton 1992 with a new face. Essentially a moderate democrat that people are tauting as a great progressive who will hold the position well but not be the best progressive.

by bruh21 2007-12-11 07:26AM | 0 recs
Re: I am for Edwards

So I compliment someone for their post and you have to get in my business? Who asked you what you thought?

by crackityjones 2007-12-11 07:29AM | 0 recs
Re: I am for Edwards

I think you are confused- you are on a public forum.

by bruh21 2007-12-11 07:32AM | 0 recs
Re: I am for Edwards

If you don't want someone to reply to your post, you should probably ask in advance.  Otherwise, this is a public message board, so don't be shocked when someone replies to what you say.

by Trickster 2007-12-11 07:34AM | 0 recs
Re: I am for Edwards

I express a compliment for someone and someone else comes in and starts again with the same Obama sucks stuff?

come on. give me a break.

by crackityjones 2007-12-11 07:49AM | 0 recs
Re: I am for Edwards

Don't be such a wuss.  If you don't want responses, don't post.

by Rooktoven 2007-12-11 08:08AM | 0 recs
classic strawman

I'd be interested in seeing a quote where Obama promises "transcendence," because claiming he does then saying such a thing is impossible is otherwise just a strawman.  I'm afraid that a blog post interpreting Andrew Sullivan is not evidence of Obama's position.  It is also flatly misleading to turn "transcending" certain divisive questions -- obviously at least theoretically possible -- with "transcendence" -- a religious term.  

As for the rest, it is easy to question Clinton, Edwards or Obama's progressiveness.  We see it everyday in the comments and diaries.  You have a good argument, but when you preface it with nonsense, it doesn't help.

by John DE 2007-12-11 07:18AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

Yawn.

Another day another Edwards supporter trashing Obama. I stopped reading half way. BORING.

Not only trashing Obama but his supporters. Apparently we don't do anything thinking. Obama is appealing to the non-thinkers! Yet every survey shows that democrats with the most education are actually supporting Obama.

Just once I wish people like David Mizner instead of trying to write all these "clever" little put downs of other candidates would either focus on their candidate or stuff it.

Why not analyze Edwards dismal performance for example? I mean he hasnt moved an inch in the polls all year!

Oh thats right, people are morons who don't think and therefore support Obama.

Or could it be they do think and just like Obama better?

by crackityjones 2007-12-11 07:21AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

Buck up. Its going to be a particularly rough ten days for Obama supporters. Last chance for Edwards and all that stuff. Put on your seat belt. After Iowa things should change.

by aiko 2007-12-11 07:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

Yeah, third place in Iowa will change his media standing.

by Rooktoven 2007-12-11 08:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

Bosh.

These candidate posts are totally boring.  Why do you guys bother?

You're making a case that's just not likely to convince anyone.

In effect, you're wasting time.

As for the substance of this entry, just give us all a break.

You know, the reasons Edwards is having so much trouble connecting anyone outside of Iowa are pretty obvious:

1. He was a forgettable, one-term right-wing Democratic senator.
2. He was a forgettable, ineffective vice presidential candidate.

Match this record against the records of Dodd, Biden, Richardson or Kucinich, and he just doesn't stack up: he's done little, and what he's done has mostly been for the bad guys.  Match Edwards' record against Clinton or Obama, and you're getting into Jay Leno territory: unlike Edwards, both Clinton and Obama have substantial records on the right side of the issues; and they have the benefit of representing something more than the sum of their legislative and professional records.  

And that, my friend, is a fact.

by island empire 2007-12-11 07:23AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

"These candidate posts are totally boring. "

This in a nutshell sums up the problem with politics. It's not here to entertain you.

by bruh21 2007-12-11 07:27AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

I should have said the American voter- you see politics like you see watching Paris Hilton.

by bruh21 2007-12-11 07:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

What's interesting is no one is even attempt to rebut my central point, that Obama isn't a bold progressive. That's telling.

I think Bruh's right: He's Bill Clinton adjusted for inflation.

by david mizner 2007-12-11 07:34AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

he's bill 1992- thats important to understand with regard to what happened to all of clinton's aspirations when 1993 hit. some of it was his own doing by not understanding in what environment he was entering. clinton 1992 was more progressive than who had to govern in 1993. the problem with the arguments about obama is that he will have to do the same. he starts further right in his strategic positioning than edwards and no one after he gets elected move further than where he is now in any mandate.

by bruh21 2007-12-11 07:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

Rebut your central point?  Mmm... but it's just too inane: you're saying that his rhetoric is more significant than his substance?  Well, take a cursory look at his record:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/1 7/politics/main2369157.shtml

And if the model for comparison is John Edwards, you're just kidding.  JOHN EDWARDS!  This is a guy who has completely re-invented himself as a progressive.  He's very literally all rhetoric.  Come on man.

by island empire 2007-12-11 07:54AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

Why would I try? People been trying for 8 months at least! You couldnt care less. You like your candidate and thats that. I got nothing against that. But the idea that I should try to convert you to my way of thinking seems really silly. You like Edwards: FINE! Enjoy him! But let me enjoy my candidate without posting a bunch of stuff denigrating him (and me in the process!).

I mean what is this? debate class?

We are all adults here and some of us like Obama. I don't see why thats a problem for you. Concentrate on what you like about Edwards. The world will be a better place.

I could post a lot about all the things I dislike about Edwards but why would I?

I happen to think Obama is far more progressive than Edwards but I know you will disagree so why would I even try to articulate my position. You have been a VERY partisan Edwards supporter  for months. You are posting diaries in his favor. You are not going to change. We've been through this month after month. You guys think Edwards is genuine. The fact that he voted for the war is no biggie really and it goes on and on and on. He was very conservative in the Senate but you all explain that away by saying he represented a conservative state. Conviction? Leadership? Those things are not expected from Senators apparently. You like him. Great. I got no beef with that. But don'd adopt this holier than thou insulting/condescending tone with respect to Obama or his supporters. Its really beneath you and its gotten very old.

Ultimately ask yourself what are you accomplishing anyways? Its really mental masturbation if you ask me. Are there many New Hampshire or Iowa voters turning to MyDD, reading your posts and diaries and supporting Edwards? I think not. Are there even three people that have read your insulting posts about Obama and thought "Oh he's right. Obama is an empty suit."? So what are you accomplishing? Why not just highlight what you like about Edwards without getting into what you don't like about Obama. Or do you like Edwards merely because you dislike Obama? That would be weak.

by crackityjones 2007-12-11 07:58AM | 0 recs
And that, my friend, is a fact

I am always suspicious of people who call others "my friend" when they are in the process of insulting them. Edwards is neither "right-wing" nor "forgettable."

by sherrylynn 2007-12-11 09:52AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

obama is better looking and thinner than edwards. he is blessed by the godess oprah. obama has something for everyone to like, maybe the godess o will give everyone a gelato machine who votes for him. the god obama will make everyone happy and we will all just get along. and we will get to watch a hollywood like parties on pop culture tv. and we will all be invited to party with thin, pretty, rich people who all worship the godess o and the god o. everything will change for the better under the o.

by maxstar 2007-12-11 07:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

And if we applaud when the light goes on, we might get free cars or refridgerators. Also, we will be able to feel good about addressing world poverty by going shopping with Bono.

by desmoulins 2007-12-11 08:03AM | 0 recs
All Obama supporters

are the same.  One can cite thousands of articles, and they refuse to accept it as evidence.  This comment from Daily Kos troll Elise at Open Left is emblematic.

Look in the mirror. (0.00 / 0)
Your comments here are ugly. Why the need to smear? Don't have anything positive to say about your own chosen candidate?
The fact is - several bloggers have smeared Obama - without PROOF. They have smeared Oprah - without PROOF. When you have no proof, you are not credible - and no one is listening.

by: Elise @ Mon Dec 10, 2007 at 18:47:12 PM CST
[ Parent ]

An ad hominem statement full of baseless claims that are not buttressed by evidence: this is all Elise and other Obama supporters can muster when confronted with the truth.  And yes, Elise attended Obama's training camp.  A supporter who does not disclose her affiliations online, she represents all that is wrong with Obama's simulated support online.  Also notice how she and other Obama supporters attempt to ban members of Daily Kos who support other candidates.  And she has the audacity to claim bloggers should hold an ethics conference.  Maybe she should look in the mirror.

by truthteller2007 2007-12-11 08:17AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

Excellent article. We don't need a President who can bury the sixities, end culture wars, cross the partisan divide or whatever stupid reason people like Andrew Sullivan like him. We need a President who can save the middle class and is willing to take on those forces that is killing it off.

by alexmhogan 2007-12-11 08:27AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

The god o can do all that with the help of the godess o. They will do all that. he can wipe away all our sins. he will give us peace of mind and make the bad memories of our history go away. he will make it so we can all just get along. and then the godess o can give us all gelato machines and invite us to hollwoodland parties.

by maxstar 2007-12-11 11:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

I agree with most of everything you said but I do think when Iowa winds up, it will be between Edwards and Clinton and that is why Edwards goes after Clinton..  Your right about Obama, really he has no record to brag about, so he claims vision.. As for the war vote, congress was never asked to vote on going to war on faulty information before.. There was no reason to doubt the info, who would have thought that a president of the USA would distort the records for the purpose of going to war, the public didn't... 80% susported the war at that time... Obama didn't vote, so we don't know if he would have gone along with the 80% or the 20% (and that may not be 20% because there has got to be some don't know's)

by my nickle 2007-12-11 08:37AM | 0 recs
Re: Edwards and Obama

i don't get the stunning smugness of Edwards' supporters, which seems completely divorced from reality:

-your candidate has a track record of being a losing candidate:
a: he couldn't run for reelection in No Carolina, as he would have been defeated
b: he was widely considered an ineffectual VP campaigner.
c: he was steamrolled by Cheney in their debate and Edwards most notable moment was coyly appealling to homophobia.
d: despite having run in 2004 and almost immediately beginning his 2008 campaign -- he's flatlined at 10%, roughly, nationally, and in his Iowa base he's descended from first place/low 30%s to 3rd place low 20%s.

-your candidate is inexperienced and has no substantive track record of being a progressive:
a: a term as Senator is minimal preparation to be president.
b: in the Senate his track record was considerably more conservative than either Obama or Clintion.
c: he derided UHC.
d: he was the most vocal Dem in support of the Iraq war, and unofficially was said to be absolutely vociferous in its support.

So, in short, you have a lousy candidate with minimal experience who embraced progressivism right before his 2008 run because he saw a niche there. And you wonder why he's an afterthought?  Add in his lack of money which combines the two faults mentioned above: lack of electability and lack of political substance. He couldn't raise enough money so he turns on a dime and starts pontificating about public financing as if he was in favor of it all along. Get with the program, there are serious candidates in this race, namely Obama, Clinton, and Biden. Each of those 3 have very distinct strengths and weaknesses, but John Edwards is a non-starter -- he simply is not presidential material and I'll be honest that I find him to epitomize the empty shallowness of U.S. politics: he stands for nothing.

by CalDem 2007-12-11 10:20AM | 0 recs

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