More On Those Zogby Interactive Numbers

Yesterday, a friend of mine who doesn't usually follow such things sent me a link to the Reuters article about the Zogby interactive poll that found, as its headline announced: "New Poll Shows Clinton Trails Top 2008 Republicans." While I was aware of the poll, that was the first time I'd realized how mainstream it had gone. It was one of the top news headlines on the Yahoo homepage while the more conventional and more credible Gallup poll, which showed the exact opposite results, was nowhere to be found.

Greg Sargent has more on this disparity.

The Zogby survey was covered repeatedly on CNN, earned coverage from MSNBC, Fox News, and Reuters and was covered by multiple other smaller outlets.

By contrast, I can't find a single example of any reporter or commentator on the major networks or news outlets referring to the Gallup poll at all, with the lone exception of UPI. While the Zogby poll was mentioned by multiple reporters and pundits, the only mentions the Gallup poll got on TV were from Hillary advisers who had to bring it up themselves on the air in order to inject it into the conversation.

Hillary Clinton's Fact Hub was on it as well:

As of about 9AM, the Zogby poll was covered on TV news 15 times and the Gallup poll was mentioned twice - by the Hillary campaign's Mark Penn and Ann Lewis.

Why is this? Doesn't really take a rocket scientist. As Pollster's Charles Franklin notes, it's about framing, stupid.

The Reuters story...uses the theme that Clinton is declining to frame these Zogby results:

The results come as other national polls show the race for the Democratic nomination tightening five weeks before the first contest in Iowa, which kicks off the state-by-state nomination battles in each party.

Some Democrats have expressed concerns about the former first lady's electability in a race against Republicans. The survey showed Clinton not performing as well as Obama and Edwards among independents and younger voters, pollster John Zogby said.

Ah, the ole "Some Democrats" trick. Yes, the media had its new storyline and had found just the poll to back it up. The larger problem was that, as with the ABC News/WaPo Iowa poll over the previous week, the coverage would repeatedly fail to note that the findings in the poll were aberrant. Franklin continues.

While [Clinton falling] is certainly a theme of recent reporting, boosted by a pre-Thanksgiving ABC/WP poll showing Obama leading Clinton in Iowa, it is striking that no other poll has found recent results as far from the trend estimates as are Zogby's results and that the Reuters story fails to note that fact.

So, how far off are the Zogby numbers from Clinton's trend estimates?

...the Zogby poll finds Sen. Hillary Clinton losing to all four top Republicans in head-to-head trial heats. What makes that surprising is that Clinton LEADS all four of those Republicans in the trend estimates based on all other polling by between 3.8 and 11.6 points. [...]

...the Zogby Clinton numbers are well below the estimated trend for Clinton in each of the four comparisons. Clinton is consistently 8-10 points below her trend estimate.

One of the more puzzling things for Franklin is that while Clinton is below her trend estimates, the support Zogby found for Barack Obama was not below his, therefore Franklin rules out an anti-Democratic bias within the poll to explain the Clinton results. Likewise, because the Republicans' numbers against Clinton are consistent with their trend estimates, he rules out yet another conclusion.

We can probably rule out one easy explanation: That Clinton has suddenly collapsed and Zogby is just the first to find it. The reason is internal to the Zogby result. If Clinton really has suddenly become 10 points less attractive, we'd expect all four Republicans paired against her to do BETTER than their trend estimates when facing her. But what happens is Clinton goes down and they don't do any better. That is hard to reconcile with a real change in Clinton's support.

So how to explain it? As you might expect, Franklin has a theory, which gets to the heart of the inherent problem with an Internet poll methodology, namely that respondents are by definition not a random sample by virtue of the fact that they needed to have taken the active step of volunteering to take part in an Internet survey.

Clinton has more support among women and somewhat older people. Both those groups are likely to be underrepresented in any pool of internet respondents. As a result the responses of those with these characteristics who ARE present in the sample are likely to be weighted up quite a bit to reach population proportions in the weighted sample. If the relatively few older women who are in the sample are ALSO atypical in other ways that both make them volunteer for internet surveys AND be less disposed to support Clinton than are non-internet volunteering older women, then weighting these respondents up won't properly capture Clinton's support and will lead to a systematic underestimate of her support.

I highly recommend reading the whole piece. Franklin concludes that while there are issues with the methodology that lead to the aberrant results found in the Zogby Interactive poll, ultimately the media needs to do a better job of contextualizing the results of polls and exercising more restraint in drawing blaring headline conclusions without full analysis. I couldn't agree more.

Tags: 2008 Presidential election, Democratic nomination, poll, zogby interactive (all tags)

Comments

35 Comments

Re: More On Those Zogby Interactive Numbers

Just watched Chris Matthews gloating over the Zogby-also absolutely ignoring Gallup- In addition, Real Clear Politics has increased her national lead this week-Usually Matthews loves that site-his reporting is so treacherous and dishonest. How can MSNBC let him continue to not to mention his guests-the Washington Post reporter looked very, very uncomfortable- the others just sucked up to him.  So frustrating and unfair.

by ExperienceCounts 2007-11-27 01:07PM | 0 recs
very very smple

One thing is clear above all other things, the pundits in the media village look at politics as sport and entertainment and more than anything, they love the excitement, glamor and ratings a close election offers.

And they'll do whatever it takes, to make elections more interesting for themselves.

From Campaign 2000, MSNBC with Brian Williams.

   HOWARD FINEMAN (9/21/00): I don't think the media was going to allow, just by its nature, the next seven weeks, the last seven or eight weeks of the campaign, to be all about Al Gore's relentless, triumphant march to the presidency. We want a race, I suppose. If we have a bias of any kind, it's that we like to see a contest and we like to see it down to the end if we can.

It's Deja Vu...all over again...

by holden caulfield 2007-11-27 03:31PM | 0 recs
Re: More On Those Zogby Interactive Numbers

I don't think the reasons for the media playing up the flawed Zogby poll are hard to divine.  They want a horse race.  It is far more interesting than the earlier emerging narrative, articulated on SNL a few months ago by "the All-But-Certain-To-Be Next President of the United States, Hillary Clinton."

So they will emphasize polls that show Republicans with a shot, even though the prevailing DC conventional wisdom is that Republicans don't have a shot.

by lorax 2007-11-27 01:08PM | 0 recs
Re: More On Those Zogby Interactive Numbers

We have a winner. Someone on this blog who understands the media as media rather than politics.

by bruh21 2007-11-27 01:22PM | 0 recs
lowering expectations

I don't see the Clinton campaign fighting this narrative very hard, I suspect they find it useful to lower expectations. The real action is in Iowa now, the national media doesn't impact decisions there at this point.

by souvarine 2007-11-27 01:16PM | 0 recs
Re: lowering expectations

did you see Penn on TV this morning or Hillary flaunting her "inevitability" last night. I do agree about the zogby internet poll, it is junk

by nevadadem 2007-11-27 01:21PM | 0 recs
Re: lowering expectations

Hey what is she supposed to say to Couric , she kept badgering her on that stupid line of questioning.

I have never watched her newscast until yesterday and I see their is merit to those who say she is a horrible journalist .

You might lose , have you ever thought of losing , what will you do when you lose .

Damn , enough already.

Even one of your candidates ally on obama's t.v. network (msnbc) chris matthews couldn't criticize her on that.

by lori 2007-11-27 01:29PM | 0 recs
Re: lowering expectations

Ah, the 'losing' question, that counts as 'flaunting inevitability'? Does any candidate talk about losing?

by souvarine 2007-11-27 01:32PM | 0 recs
Re: lowering expectations

It's only "flaunting inevitability" when a female candidate does it. After all, to the all-boys club of presidential politics, a woman's place is still in the kitchen.

by hwc 2007-11-27 02:24PM | 0 recs
Re: lowering expectations

nope. Isn't the Penn appearance what facthub refers to? He has to set the record straight, that doesn't count as a big push-back to me.

Do you have a link to Hillary 'flaunting'?

by souvarine 2007-11-27 01:31PM | 0 recs
Re: More On Those Zogby Interactive Numbers

Statisticians can create polls to get results they want. The bigger question is why John Zogby wants to create a poll that calls into question Hillary's chances in the general election. Zogby is of Middle Eastern ancestry and might really want another candidate to win in Iowa.

by maxstar 2007-11-27 01:42PM | 0 recs
Re: More On Those Zogby Interactive Numbers

Well it's interesting that these news outlets have their own polls showing her ahead but those are not useful to them.

by Justify My Vote 2007-11-27 01:44PM | 0 recs
Why they give that poll

any credibility is beyond me. Zogby Interactive has as much credibility as George Bush being a rocket scientist.

by KainIIIC 2007-11-27 01:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Why they give that poll

Zogby lost all credibility when he said that Al Gore and Bush are tied in CA back in 2000. Gore won by 12% points. Then in 2002 he called all Senate races wrong except the one in Missouri. The biggest joke was how Strickland was leading Allard by seven points the weekend before the elections and MSNBC's Tim Russert harped on it throughout Meet the Press. As far as ABC is concerned, they lost my respect when they said that the GOP has closed to within four the weekend before the 2006 elections in the generic ballot. They lost by eight. That weekend a year ago, Stephanopolus was consistently harping that Dems may not even regain the House let alone the Senate. This was when Kondracke, Rothenberg, Cook, Sabato and others were predicting a Dem blowout, which did come. So, I need more polls before I can conclude anything. Hopefully we will get some this week, both for Iowa and for New Hampshire. If we want state by post Presidential Trial Heats go to Survey USA..they predicted 26 out of the 30 House races correct last year and all the Senate races correct as well.

by Boilermaker 2007-11-27 01:57PM | 0 recs
The writer clearly had an agenda

The whole article draws conclusions and mentions 'democratic concerns' while at the same time carefully avoids using the words "online polling" until it gets to the final two words.

by Cleveland John 2007-11-27 01:55PM | 0 recs
Re: More On Those Zogby Interactive Numbers

How bout this, that the media doesn't cover half-assed polls like Zogby Interactive at all. Or if they do cover it clearly call it what it is, an online poll. Like those polls you have on CNN's webpage, those are about as accurate as Zogby Interaction. And to hell with John Zogby for putting on this performance that these polls are worth a damn.

by Christopher Lib 2007-11-27 02:07PM | 0 recs
Mark Penn: Buckling Under the Pressure of an Unfav

Mark Penn: Buckling Under the Pressure of an Unfavorable Poll

Mark Penn: Buckling Under the Pressure of an Unfavorable Poll

All is fair in love and war, the centuries-old proverb states. Politics is not included, but given the way the game is played in modern-day America, maybe it should be. That's the sense I had again this morning watching Mark Penn, the chief political strategist for Democrat Hillary Clinton, denigrate our latest Zogby Interactive survey simply because it showed his client in a bad light (Link to Latest Poll Number). Penn made the contention on the MSNBC morning news program hosted by Joe Scarborough (Link to Video)

Penn mischaracterized this latest online Zogby poll as our first interactive survey ever - a bizarre contention, since we have been developing and perfecting our Internet polling methodology for nearly a decade (Zogby Intreractive Methodology), and since Penn's company has been quietly requesting the results of such polls from Zogby for years. We always comply as part of our pledge to give public Zogby polling results to any and every candidate and campaign that asks for them. What is interesting is that no other campaign has made as many requests for Zogby polling data over the years than Penn has made on behalf of Clinton.

Because Mark Penn is a quality pollster himself, we chalk up his contention that our poll is "meaningless" as a knee-jerk reaction by a campaign under pressure coming down the stretch. Several other polls - Zogby surveys and others - have shown her national lead and her leads in early-voting states like Iowa and New Hampshire have shrunk. This is not unusual. These presidential contests usually tighten as the primaries and caucuses approach.

Fritz Wenzel
Director of Communications
Zogby International

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?I D=1394

by aiko 2007-11-27 02:14PM | 0 recs
Live by the polls: Die by the polls.

Live by the polls: Die by the polls.
by aiko 2007-11-27 02:25PM | 0 recs
Re: Live by the polls: Die by the polls.

You do know that Obama spends the most on polls, right? Kinda like Bush: I pay no attention to the polls (while Rove has THE math).

Funny what passes for straight talk these days.

by souvarine 2007-11-27 02:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Live by the polls: Die by the polls.

Penn deserves everything he gets.

by aiko 2007-11-27 02:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Live by the polls: Die by the polls.

This coming from a Right eaning interactive online poll! Give me a break.

by lonnette33 2007-11-27 04:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Live by the polls: Die by the polls.

I mean a right "leaning".

by lonnette33 2007-11-27 04:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Live by the polls: Die by the polls.

Yeah, that Zogby NATIONAL poll showing an 11% race is really credible.   Oh wait, it is not.  It sticks out like a sore thumb, considering that everybody else is in the 20s (today's Rasmussen shows the exact opposite with Clinton at more than double the margin Zogby showed.)

by georgep 2007-11-27 03:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Live by the polls: Die by the polls.

its an opt in poll

and so totally without merit...

might as well trust the numbers at kos.

by holden caulfield 2007-11-27 03:36PM | 0 recs
Zogby ducks the question by attacking Clinton

I notice that Fritz Wenzel doesn't address the underlying question: why does his "online poll" differ from every other national poll conducted this year on head-to-head matchups?

by hwc 2007-11-27 02:30PM | 0 recs
Re: Zogby ducks the question by attacking Clinton

you have to sign up and agree to be polled at a later date.

by holden caulfield 2007-11-27 03:37PM | 0 recs
Re: Zogby ducks the question by attacking Clinton

The poll was done Nov. 21-26th

Gallup's poll was done Nov. 11-14th released on the 26th

Rasmussen's poll of Nov. 19-20th
Guliani 46
Clinton 42

Clinton 46
Thompson 44

It seems in line with Zogby. I have not seen any other polls done on GE MATCHUP'S  AROUND THE SAME TIME OR LATER THAN Zogby or Rasmussen.

Then we can see if Clinton's horrible MSM coverage after the debate of Oct. 30th AND THE abc poll has had an impact on these numbers.

Many times it takes up to 10 -12 days after a series of events to be reflected in polling.

On the other hand this Zogby poll could be an outlier.

by BDM 2007-11-27 05:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Zogby ducks the question by attacking Clinton

I'm not entirely concerned with that Rasmussen poll. At least Rasmussen know how to conduct a poll. The problem I have with the poll is the volatility. Clinton was leading by six in the previous poll two weeks ago, now she is down by 4, a ten-point swing in two weeks does not seem reasonable to me.

by RJEvans 2007-11-27 05:22PM | 0 recs
Re: Zogby ducks the question by attacking Clinton

Clinton has had horrible press after the Oct. 30th debate and this has led to a drop in her numbers. So Rasmussen's number's are not surprising at all.

by BDM 2007-11-27 07:27PM | 0 recs
Re: More On Those Zogby Interactive Numbers

I hate innumeracy.

by The Cunctator 2007-11-27 03:14PM | 0 recs
Re: More On Those Zogby Interactive Numbers

What gets me our these zogby respondents that are voting for the Gop candidate over Hillary.  I guess they just want more U.S death in Iraq and higher economic instability in the States.  How sad.

by nzubechukwu 2007-11-27 04:56PM | 0 recs
Re: More On Those Zogby Interactive Numbers

The Zogby result sounds like an outlier to me.

by herbal tee 2007-11-27 05:02PM | 0 recs
Re: More On Those Zogby Interactive Numbers

Kos on DailyKos has a great dairy on this poll. And Charles Franklin on Pollster.com has a really interesting analysis of this poll as well.

What´s really cool is to see bloggers who are not Hillary supporters catch this false attack and refute it. I think that bodes well for us in the general election.

Everything is about the general election. The moment we forget that it, is the moment we loose it.

by moi moi 2007-11-28 06:48AM | 0 recs
Re: More On Those Zogby Interactive Numbers

Zogby is very pro-Iraq war, to the point that whoever is for the war does better in a Zogby poll than those that don't....  

by my nickle 2007-11-28 08:39AM | 0 recs
Re: More On Those Zogby Interactive Numbers
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