Defending Immigrant Driver's Licenses

Towards the end of last night's debate there was a bit of a kerfuffle over New York Governor Eliot Spitzer's decision to create a class of driver's licenses that cannot be used for identification purposes for airports and the like and, as such, would be available to those in the United States illegally. For those who weren't able to see the debate or experience the televised post-debate spin room antics, Hillary Clinton was put on the spot on the issue, and while not fully embracing the Spitzer plan she seemed to support the idea behind it as well as decry the situation that precipitated it -- namely the failure of the federal government to effectively deal with the immigration issue. Similarly, according to the debate transcript, Barack Obama called it "the right idea" citing "a public safety concern."

Following the debate the chattering class seemed intent on considering this a strong blow against Clinton, if not in the primary then in a potential general election. Indeed, a Sienna College poll of New Yorkers evidences a high level of opposition to Spitzer's plan -- "nearly three-quarters of voters," in fact -- and just 22 percent support for the measure. One could imagine the general reaction around the country not being too dissimilar.

Yet I'd like to do something I don't do too often on this site: Defend a policy position undertaken by the Democrats -- and a not terribly popular one, at that. I don't know a terribly large amount about the Spitzer plan, so I'm not going to address the specifics of it. I do know that Oregon Governor Ted Kulongoski floated a similar, though less complicated plan that would create two classes of licenses (as opposed to Spitzer's three), one that would require proof of "legal presence" that could be used as an official identification card for banks, airports and other such places, and one that would be stamped "not for identification" that would be used only for driver's licensing purposes.

As Obama suggested during the debate, there is a real security issue that could be addressed by this tiering of licenses. Specifically, at least some of the 12 million or so people in the United States unlawfully at this juncture drive cars, and when they do so they may be doing so without a full knowledge of driving rules and regulations and without insurance. On the first point, testing these ddrivers before they get on the road could do quite a bit to mitigate this problem, particularly if the tiered licensing system is done in such a way that immigrants don't feel that by applying for a license they are increasing their likelihood of being deported or otherwise penalized. Of nearly equal importance to this issue of safety, getting these drivers licensed would enable them to get car insurance, which could actually decrease the cost for other drivers who do have insurance. (When someone without insurance hits someone with insurance the cost must be borne somewhere.)

No doubt this isn't the most popular move at this juncture. But with a bit of explanation and political capital (and real capital) invested in making the argument, I think there are a lot of people -- particularly the large proportion of Americans in favor of a path to legalization or citizenship for illegal immigrants -- who could be swayed. And even for those whose positions are particularly hardened at this point so that they would not be swayed, it's not clear to me that the issue is salient enough to make them change their mind about a presidential election when other issues like Iraq, Iran, the economy and healthcare continue to loom large.

Update [2007-10-31 14:45:24 by Jonathan Singer]: It looks like CNN polled this question nationally earlier this month and found 23 percent support and 76 percent opposition to this type of plan, so the national numbers do look fairly similar to the New York numbers.

Tags: Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, immigration (all tags)

Comments

58 Comments

it's not about the idea

it's about obfuscating , triangulating and calculating in case you missed 2 hours of candidates accusing her of doubletalk

by TarHeel 2007-10-31 10:21AM | 0 recs
Re: it's not about the idea

oh get off talking points and actually look at the damned issue.

NY has a LOT of immigrants, and they drive.  What do you propose?

If the federal government doesnt get off their ass and fix this situation, the state and local governments are going to do something about it.  

by sepulvedaj3 2007-10-31 10:27AM | 0 recs
when you actually get to the

issue Obama said "yes" he supports Spitzer.

hillary was confusing and evasive

by TarHeel 2007-10-31 10:40AM | 0 recs
Re: when you actually get to the

the issue is broader than that. This SHOULD NOT be a state/local issue. its a federal issue, and the congress/president are just letting the issue get worse.

by sepulvedaj3 2007-10-31 10:48AM | 0 recs
Re: when you actually get to the

You don't seem to understand the point. It's not about whether Hillary supports it or not, it's that she was very unclear and it sounded like she wanted it both ways. First she defended the decision, then she said to Dodd that she wasn't supporting it necessarily, then she went into another long argument in support for the program. That's her problem here. She wants it both ways.

by Progressive America 2007-10-31 03:03PM | 0 recs
Re: when you actually get to the

umm no, maybe you just wanted to hear it that way. Scroll down, i wrote what she said the first time, and i wrote what she said after Russert asked her again.

You are confusing two questions. The first is what she thought about Spitzers plan, the second question asked was if anyone supported drivers licences. To that Dodd said no, and so did Hillary. When she said she didnt support drivers licenses, Dodd said she just said she did, but she did. At that point Russert asked her again, and she gave the same answer she gave the first time.

After that, Edwards and Obama made it seem like she answered differently, but the questions were different.

It is not me who missed the point, but you who followed two different lines of questions, and made them one question.

Scroll down thread, both of her answers are posted

by sepulvedaj3 2007-10-31 06:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Defending Immigrant Driver's Licenses

I thought Hillary made the right point in her initial response.  This whole band-aid concept would be a non-issue if Congress had done their job and passed comprehensive immigration reform.  The only thing she didn't mention is that the reform bill failed because of a Republican filibuster.

Congress may be able to ignore the immigration issue until the next session, but the 12 million people aren't going away, and it's the mayors and governors like Spitzer who are left having to deal with the real-world implications.  Agree or disagree with the driver's license proposal, we wouldn't be having the debate in the first place if we had a rational immigration policy at the federal level.

by Steve M 2007-10-31 10:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Defending Immigrant Driver's Licenses

The operative word being "initial".  It's the only common sense approach.  Illegal immigrants are not going to be shipped back across the border, and they aren't going to stop buying cars and driving.  Instead of taking a principled stand, albeit closer to the left than center, she immediately retreated back to the middle of the road and tripped over her own feet.  Chris Matthews can yell (and spit) all he wants that immigration will be the hottest hot button issue of '08, but no public opinion poll has bared that out.  To my shock and pleasure, outside of Red states, immigration is ranked very low on the list of priorities.  That is to say that most non-Latinos do not see this as a priority voting issue.  Instead of Democrats running scared of Lou Dobbs and Rush Limbaugh, why don't we try a novel approach: appealing to the common sense of Americans.  Beyond that, the electoral map is changing with the complexion of America.  We need to stop looking at this country merely in terms of Black and White or Red and Blue.  Look at the growing Brown dots all over the map.  Realistically, what states would we lose over this issue?  Perhaps OH, but that's a slight chance because their economic woes are a far greater priority.  Certainly not FL.  What states could we win over this issue? NM, NV, VA, CO--States with large or growing Latino populations.  Northern VA, where I reside, has one of the largest and fastest growing Latino populations but also a huge influx of well educated Liberals.  That's one of the biggest contributing factors to why VA is turning increasingly purple or a dark shade of blue.  The hidden story about this upcoming election may very well be the number of 18-25 year old American born children of illegal immigrants that are registering to vote for the '08 election.  I can attest that the NOVA Democratic Party is doing a huge, but not highly publicized, Latino voter drive.  This is not the killer issue that many are predicting; it may very well be an opportunity.

by Dee 2007-10-31 11:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Defending Immigrant Driver's Licenses

I think the Democrats will always run scared of whatever the pundit class tells them about what "real Americans" think.  I hope to live long enough to see things work differently, but I'm not holding my breath.

by Steve M 2007-10-31 11:14AM | 0 recs
Re: Defending Immigrant Driver's Licenses
what, not one single word about Chris Dodd?
Maybe you should watch the debate again.
by thebrillbrigade 2007-10-31 10:26AM | 0 recs
Re: Defending Immigrant Driver's Licenses

Yeah, I'm not giving him props on the issue -- because I disagree with his position.

by Jonathan Singer 2007-10-31 10:36AM | 0 recs
Re: Defending Immigrant Driver's Licenses

just because you disagree with a politico on an issue is not a reason to not write about Senator Dodd.  He was the first to call into question Clinton's response and CT is alot closer to NY than NC or IL or NM or OH.  

by thebrillbrigade 2007-10-31 11:26AM | 0 recs
I give Dodd props

for nailing Hillary on Electability and creating a huge general election take-down of hillary on illegals

by TarHeel 2007-10-31 10:41AM | 0 recs
Dodd should be criticized

Everyone that has become enamored with Dodd recently has done squat in examining his record.  Dodd is the insurance industry's best friend in Congress, along with Lieberman.  If you want you rights to the court system restricted in the event a corporation defrauds you or a doctor commits medical practice, then vote for Dodd.  If you believe we should bash illegal immigrants for political gain, vote Dodd.

by Stephen Cassidy 2007-10-31 10:49AM | 0 recs
About Dodd

I actually think Dodd should have been more of "the story from last night's debate" in the MSM today. He had been essentially dormant in all the previous debates. Not so last night.

It was Dodd who was unusually sharp-edged in his criticism of Hillary Clinton (50% won't vote for Clinton...hmmm...THAT is a sharp-edged comment). It was Dodd who made the somewhat unexpected decision to depart from the set format (admittedly soporific) and get into a heated mini-debate with Hillary over her position(s) on drivers' licenses.  

That mini-debate led to some problems for Hillary, and that became the "sensational story" to emerge from the debate. (Hence this diary.)  Yet, curiously, Dodd's name seems to have been removed from all the stories about Clinton's problems here.  And Dodd was the instigator, the sine non qua!

And of course, the viewers left the debate with the impression (true?) that Dodd was the only one of the presidential candidates who favored decriminalization of marijuana AND opposed allowing undocumented workers to obtain state drivers' licenses. Which means...?

by Demo37 2007-10-31 11:38AM | 0 recs
Which means...?

Pray tell.

by Jerome Armstrong 2007-10-31 11:57AM | 0 recs
Tough To Say

I was actually being sincere with that question. I was curious to hear what others think about the two positions...

Up to this point, those two issues have not been on the political radar screen in the Democratic race.  Nevertheless, those two issues closed last night's debate with some unanticipated fireworks.

Both are divisive hot button issues, and as such, they will assuredly be used by a Republican nominee against a Democratic nominee...if the Republicans sense an advantage. As a result, they must be taken into consideration.

Dodd went out on a limb on the issue of decriminalization. I would be curious to see how that position polls, particularly in the swing states. If Dodd were the nominee, and he maintained that position, I suspect that certain swing states would simply have to be written off. A few well placed TV ads on "legalizing drugs" in those swing states...and poof...they would probably be out of contention.

As far as the drivers' license issue, as best I can tell, only Dodd made his position crystal clear on that issue. Aside and apart from the merits, his position is likely the more politically shrewd position.

As for the other candidates, I realize that there was a hand raising "test" (who is against), but in the final analysis, going forward, every one of the candidates is going to be asked to spell out a more precise position on this hot button issue... beyond the hand raising exercise.

Clinton ventured forward with her attempt, and she flubbed it badly. She was caught speaking out of both sides of her mouth. She is both for, AND against it. Well done? Perhaps in the Clinton 90's?

Then again...let's see how the others do.  

by Demo37 2007-10-31 01:51PM | 0 recs
no, not a good idea

Look, the comprehensive immigration bill literally SHUT down the Senate phone and fax lines, it generated so much outrage across the country.

Spitzer in an ultra blue state, overwhelmingly Democratic state,  has generated outrage in that state with 73% against his plan to give illegals driver's licenses.

Public approval of congress is in the single digits and you cannot tell me it's because one of the first things they did was....try to pass "comprehensive" immigration reform.

The polls generally show that no, people are not into these plans or proposals, I think "comprehensive" immigration reform had about 23% for the bill.

They are not into it and shoving this stuff down the American people's throat, well we'll see but I'll place my bet that it just cost the Democrats the '08 election.  

by Robert Oak 2007-10-31 10:26AM | 0 recs
Re: it is not about the idea

The issue isn't over the substance of her answer, it was her equivocating. For the first time, you could actually see her trying to triangulate. Obama and Edwards hit her not on the substance of her answer, but the equivocation. Take a position and explain WHY that position is the best position under the circumstances. That's what she fails to do, time and again. My guess is that the substantive issue will come up in the primary, but by then it will be a different format and whoever the nominee is, they can tease out their answer better.

by BDM 2007-10-31 10:36AM | 0 recs
Re: it is not about the idea

I think Jonathan has totally missed what was wrong with Clinton's position on the issue --- she took a position on both sides of the issue.  First she is for it, then she is against it.  How is that taking a position?  That IS the problem with Clinton's response Jonathan

by True Independent 2007-10-31 10:40AM | 0 recs
Re: no, not a good idea

No, you're wrong. Look at the polling:

ABC News Poll. Sept. 27-30, 2007. N=1,035 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3 (for all adults). Fieldwork by ICR.

"Would you support or oppose a program giving ILLEGAL immigrants now living in the United States the right to live here LEGALLY if they pay a fine and meet other requirements?"

Support -- 58%
Oppose -- 35%
Unsure -- 7%       

Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg Poll. June 7-10, 2007. N=1,183 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

"One proposal would allow undocumented immigrants who have been living and working in the United States for a number of years, and who do not have a criminal record, to start on a path to citizenship by registering that they are in the country, paying a fine, getting fingerprinted, and learning English, among other requirements. Do you support or oppose this, or haven't you heard enough about it to say?"

Support -- 63%   
Oppose -- 23%
Haven't Heard -- 12%
Unsure -- 2%

Those are just the two most recent polls on the subject that ask the question about the path to citizenship. Other numbers are not dissimilar. Simply put, Americans favor providing a path to citizenship for those currently in the United States unlawfully.

by Jonathan Singer 2007-10-31 10:42AM | 0 recs
polls

Polling report

The answer is in the details to each question and how it's worded.

You can tout those few polls all you want to but the evidence is pouring in on each individual proposal that it's extremely unpopular.

There are other polls which show strong support for "enforcement only" as well.

So, we could sit here all day, doing "pick a poll" to defend some position but to me the proof in the pudding is when the bills actually come up, just how much those poll extremely negatively and just how much outrage is generated and I'd say frankly it's gobs.

by Robert Oak 2007-10-31 10:58AM | 0 recs
Re: no, not a good idea

Those polls say nothing about drivers licenses. People hate this program (I'm not sure why, I know why I don't like it) but support citizenship eventually for hard-working illegals. There's no dissonance in that position.

by MNPundit 2007-10-31 11:37AM | 0 recs
Hillary's position

and those of many posting in this thread is to the RIGHT of George Bush.

When Governor of Texas, the shrub allowed illegal immigrants to get a fully functional drivers license.

Look, this is a VERY dangerous issue. Pew did a poll asking indepedents to identify the most important issues a couple of days ago. 40% of independents said the loss of control of our borders.

But as some point we do have to stand on principle. I would hope that would mean not being to the right of George Bush.

by fladem 2007-10-31 11:30AM | 0 recs
sorry not "Right"
I'm sorry it's not a "right" position, in spite of those trying to frame it so.  A lot of the '06 Dem wins were Dems with a very strong enforcement position on illegal immigration and there are many Dems who want the current laws enforced...
so trying to frame this as a "right" position when in truth it's scattered across the political spectrum is wrong.
by Robert Oak 2007-11-01 09:27AM | 0 recs
Re: no, not a good idea

Just like it cost the GOP the House and Senate last year!!

by Boilermaker 2007-10-31 06:47PM | 0 recs
disagree

no, I think it's really about "comprehensive" immigration reform and driver's licenses.  It really is, there is clearly a lot of money pouring into to pressure people to promote illegals on these blogs,  but the reality is the American people do not want this stuff, that's the bottom line and to take an analogy, one can frame it anyway they want, they can sell it anyway they want but it's pretty obvious to me that the American people vehemently do not want it.  

Supposedly these blogs are about the corporate sell-out of the United States and Bush's very unpopular, illegal war, yet seemingly the blogs are turning into the illegal immigrant advocacy forum and frankly I just don't think that's where the majority of Americans heads are at.  

You're pitting a very unpopular agenda against a very unpopular war.  

by Robert Oak 2007-10-31 10:49AM | 0 recs
Re: disagree

It really is, there is clearly a lot of money pouring into to pressure people to promote illegals on these blogs

You're suggesting I'm getting paid to write in favor of a path to legalization for illegal immigrants? Any desire to substantiate that claim?

by Jonathan Singer 2007-10-31 10:56AM | 0 recs
I didn't say that

But there is a lot of money and a lot of organization behind this.  Please do not put words into my mouth, thank you.

by Robert Oak 2007-10-31 10:59AM | 0 recs
Re: I didn't say that

I have to agree (Robert) with your statments , in general.

My view is that any opposition to ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION automatically labels you a racist or a xenophobe. There seems to be no middle ground, either you let ILLEGAL immigration be whatever it is, or your a bigot.

I am neither in the majority or minority when it comes to this issue, I feel that many things need to be done, some of them might not be pleasent to some. But none the less, we need to do whatever is in the best interest of the US and its citizens first before all else , IMO.

by Tragor 2007-10-31 11:31AM | 0 recs
Re: I didn't say that

My apologies for the spelling errors. Quick fingers, short attention span, so spell checking.

by Tragor 2007-10-31 11:33AM | 0 recs
I agree

There is massive repression, name calling, accusation against any other Progressive, Democrat, Populist who disagrees with these people and it's pretty damn embarrassing frankly.  No, you cannot even discuss it or talk about policy implications, nothing without getting name called, regardless of where your general position is.  

by Robert Oak 2007-10-31 11:43AM | 0 recs
What's happening in states including New Mexico

From a 2004 report:

As it stands, a hodgepodge of laws govern whether illegal immigrants can lawfully drive in the United States. Ten states (Hawaii, Illinois, Michigan, Montana, New Mexico, North Carolina, Oregon, Utah, Washington and Wisconsin) do not require license applicants to demonstrate that they are lawfully present in the United States, in effect granting driver's licenses to illegal immigrants. Most of those states do require applicants to present an identification card issued by their home country.

Five other states provide special licenses with distinguishing features for non-citizens. South Dakota is the only state that - without exception -- requires all license applicants to give a Social Security number, which many illegal immigrants do not have. The others accept a patchwork of identification combinations. Some accept a taxpayer identification number issued by the Internal Revenue Service in lieu of a social security number.

New Mexico last year became the latest state to issue driver's licenses to illegal immigrants, and officials say the change has helped contribute to a drop in the state's uninsured rate, which in December of 2002 was 33 percent the highest in the nation and now is 17 percent. Insurance premiums also have dropped in that state and fewer people are fleeing accident scenes, according to Moran of the National Immigration Law Center. Almost 14,000 of the state's estimated 150,000 illegal immigrants have obtained licenses in the past year.

Source:  http://www.stateline.org/live/ViewPage.a ction?siteNodeId=136&languageId=1&am p;contentId=15696

by Stephen Cassidy 2007-10-31 10:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Defending Immigrant Driver's Licenses

For crying out loud 75% of people in NEW YORK, the bluest of the blue oppose this plan. It is bad policy and bad politics. It's so funny to see people quoting polls when they support their issue but trying to say people are just ignorant when a poll goes the other way.

Remember all those "67% of people want SCHIP" expansion outcries? Crickets now huh? Democrats should condemn the Spitzer plan and stay away from this issue, it is a monumental loser. When 3/4 of the population is against you, that you tell you something. Hillary made a mistake by triangulating as usual, and Obama made a mistake by supporting a policy that is about as popular as rotten meat.

by need some wood 2007-10-31 11:05AM | 0 recs
Re: Defending Immigrant Driver's Licenses

The problem is that governors and mayors don't simply have the choice to do nothing at all about the issue, nor do they have the resources to enforce the immigration laws that the Feds have dropped the ball on.

Unless and until Congress adopts an acceptable federal solution to the immigration problem, states and muncipalities are going to have to apply some sort of band-aid.  These measures may not be popular, but doing nothing isn't an option.

by Steve M 2007-10-31 11:13AM | 0 recs
Re: Defending Immigrant Driver's Licenses

So instead of reasoning to the common sense and common decency of Americans, you propose that Democrats continue to capitulate to mob mentality aka the polls?  You have to wonder how this was ever the Party of Roosevelt and Kennedy.

by Dee 2007-10-31 11:39AM | 0 recs
Re: Defending Immigrant Driver's Licenses

Let us see whether New York goes red next time.

by Boilermaker 2007-10-31 06:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Defending Immigrant Driver's Licenses

Hillary's Initial Response --
"Well, what Governor Spitzer is trying to do is fill the vacuum left by the failure of this administration to bring about comprehensive immigration reform. We know in New York we have several million at any one time who are in New York illegally. They are undocumented workers. They are driving on our roads. The possibility of them having an accident that harms themselves or others is just a matter of the odds. It's probability.
So what Governor Spitzer is trying to do is to fill the vacuum. I believe we need to get back to comprehensive immigration reform because no state, no matter how well intentioned, can fill this gap. There needs to be federal action on immigration reform.

where does she say "YES" to Spitzers idea?

by sepulvedaj3 2007-10-31 11:28AM | 0 recs
Re: Defending Immigrant Driver's Licenses

Second response after Russert tries to say she said yes

" It makes a lot of sense. What is the governor supposed to do? He is dealing with a serious problems. We have failed. And George Bush has failed. Do I think this is the best thing for any governor to do? No. But do I understand the sense of real desperation, trying to get a handle on this? Remember, in New York, we want to know who's in New York. We want people to come out of the shadows. He's making an honest effort to do it. We should have passed immigration reform.

by sepulvedaj3 2007-10-31 11:31AM | 0 recs
Re: Defending Immigrant Driver's Licenses

Edwards Response:

"I want to add something that Chris Dodd just said a minute ago, because I don't want it to go unnoticed. Unless I missed something, Senator Clinton said two different things in the course of about two minutes just a few minutes ago. "

where?

by sepulvedaj3 2007-10-31 11:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Defending Immigrant Driver's Licenses

I think I'm probably against it until I know more specifics. I'd worry about institutionalizing a permanent illegal underclass.

by MNPundit 2007-10-31 11:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Defending Immigrant Driver's Licenses

Where have you been? We already have institutionalized a permanent illegal underclass, in large part because the federal government has not enforced immigration laws or laws prohibiting employers from hiring undocumented workers.

by hwc 2007-10-31 11:40AM | 0 recs
How the argument for immigrant DLs has been framed

It's true that "this isn't the most popular move at this juncture" but that's because Democratic leadership and the media have allowed the Republicans to frame the issue as something having to do with national security and federal law enforcement. The reality is that DLs have never had anything to to with federal law or immigration. Having one just shows that you know how to drive. And the administration of DLs is totally the responsibility of state governments. Democratic candidates need to be firm in saying that making state and municipal authorities become the frontline of our immigration enforcement is a cop-out on the part of the federal branch. The fact that Senator Clinton was put on the spot  regarding this issue shows how she likes to operate within Republican frames rather than fighting to alter them.

by jeffbinnc 2007-10-31 11:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Defending Immigrant Driver's Licenses

This is a huge issue in Upstate NY. There is nothing worse than being hit by an unlicensed (and uninsured) driver. Spitzer has shown enormous courage in taking this one. Senator Clinton, as our sentaor, should have had this one cold. What a major diasappointment.

by ahs 2007-10-31 11:55AM | 0 recs
Definitely not a good idea

The issue is about granting driver licenses to ILLEGAL aliens; legal immigrants can easily obtain driver licenses.

Defending the indefensible is futile. No state should reward de facto citizenship privileges to non-citizens whose residency in this country is unlawful. Instead, illegals must be detained then deported to their country of origin when encountered by the authorities, or motivated to self-deport over time through strict worksite enforcement.

by fafnir 2007-10-31 01:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Definitely not a good idea

Comments like this illustrate the problem.  On a political blog, are there really people who don't understand that we have two different levels of government, state and federal?

Let's say this commentor is 100% right that the federal government ought to be detaining and deporting each and every illegal immigrant.  Okay, but they're not doing it!

So in the real world, what are the state and city governments supposed to do, in order to deal with the problem caused by federal inaction?  They simply don't have the money, the personnel, or the jurisdiction to enforce the federal immigration laws against millions of illegal immigrants.

So the states are forced into stop-gap measures, like Spitzer's plan.  "If the feds won't get rid of these illegal immigrants," they say, "at least we can try to get a handle on who's living in our state as a pure matter of public safety."

I understand why people oppose Spitzer's plan.  But I think what they really oppose is the lack of action at the federal level, which is the root cause of all this.  If we take it as a given that the federal government is not going to do anything to enforce the laws, then the states and cities have to do SOMETHING to cope in the meantime.

by Steve M 2007-10-31 01:11PM | 0 recs
Re: Definitely not a good idea

So, by your argument, I suppose you support the action by Prince William County in Virginia and the state of Arizona (among others) to work with ICE to identify and deport illegals?

by fafnir 2007-10-31 02:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Definitely not a good idea

I don't know anything about that, but I definitely have no problem with enforcing the law.

by Steve M 2007-10-31 02:44PM | 0 recs
Re: Definitely not a good idea

Since when is a driver's license "de facto citizenship"? Never has been. Never will be until (and I hope we don't) have a citizenship-based national form of ID. Your proposal to detain and deport all "illegals" is wildly unrealistic since there are so many millions of them. And regarding your proposal to motivate them to "self-deport through worksite enforcement," have you brought this suggestion up to the owners of the restaurants where you dine, the supervisors of the groundskeepers where you play golf, the home builders expanding the residential tax base of your town, the corporate CEOs who provide the cheap poultry, pork and beef in your grocery store, the garage owner where you get your car repaired, the trucking companies that transport goods to your community . . . ?

by jeffbinnc 2007-10-31 01:16PM | 0 recs
Re: Definitely not a good idea

Illegals will perceive the driver's license as documentation legitimizing their unlawful residency status. And some may register to vote with their state sanctioned identity.

I never said "to detain and deport all illegals." It's impossible to go around and round them up for deportation, and I don't advocate doing so. It's not necessary.

What I did say: "Instead, illegals must be detained and deported to their country of origin when encountered by the authorities, or encouraged to self-deport through strict worksite enforcement."

The conditional phrase, "when encountered" does not equate to "all."

Gee, I guess illegal employers will have to raise wages to attract the needed labor to fill those jobs that Americans want to do (and do perform) for a fair wage and humane working conditions. Advocating the continued exploitation of illegal cheap labor for corporate profit or selfish savings is not a progressive value I share.

by fafnir 2007-10-31 02:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Definitely not a good idea

There's no way that "illegals perceive the driver's license as documentation legitimizing their unlawful residency status". They know more about what really constitutes real "documentation"than you and I will ever know. Regarding "progressive values", have you forgotten that this is a nation of immigrants? A sure and swift path to legal status is the way to ensure fair wages, access to health care, contributions to social security, participation in in labor unions. What are your real "progressive values" when you are willing to turn your back on exploited populations who have been motivated into this country through our unfair trade policies and World Bank mandates that have put developing countries in a untenable situation to provide jobs for their workers?

by jeffbinnc 2007-10-31 07:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Definitely not a good idea

There's no way that "illegals will perceive the driver's license as documentation legitimizing their unlawful residency status". They know way too much about what constitutes "documentation" than you and I know because they live it very day. Have you ever talked to an undocumented immigrant to hear their side? Regarding your  "progressive values", the most "progressive" approach to these new-comers to our continent is to acknowledge that most of them have been driven to our economy due to unfair trade policies and international labor exploitation that has been endorsed by American businesses. Our nation  is a nation of immigrants. Why are you challenging that heritage?

by jeffbinnc 2007-10-31 07:44PM | 0 recs
Please forgive...

the double posting. Don't know how it happened but that'll teach me not to post after Halloween parties.;)

by jeffbinnc 2007-11-01 10:10AM | 0 recs
Re: Defending Immigrant Driver's Licenses

"and one that would be stamped 'not for identification' that would be used only for driver's licensing purposes."

Social Security cards used to say that, and we know how that worked out....

by Lex 2007-10-31 01:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Defending Immigrant Driver's Licenses

It never ceases to amaze me how willing Democrats/progressives are to shoot themselves in the foot over this issue. Come on people, illegal immigration is a fundamental threat to all of our most cherished causes: universal health care, quality public education, eliminating poverty, improving wages, etc.

Flip the polls anyway you want, the vast majority of Americans want to end illegal immigration. Whether or not people favor giving those already here a "path to citizenship," almost nobody (except their employers) wants them to remain here illegally. Allowing illegal immigrants to get driver's licenses goes directly against that.  

by dmc2 2007-10-31 01:17PM | 0 recs
Re: Defending Immigrant Driver's Licenses

Then let them show up at the polls and vote the Democrats out. If despite this furor the Dems gain seats in VA general assembly next week, I will say illegal immigration is a non issue to most voters.

by Boilermaker 2007-10-31 06:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Defending Immigrant Driver's Licenses

Having a drivers license would not have made a difference when a Mexican rear-ended my car in Dallas.  When the police officer arrived an hour later, the illegal alien lied about hitting my car.  He was driving a borrowed car.  Oddly, the insurer of the car was liable under Texas law even though he was unlicensed. It makes no sense that people who carry insurance should be subsidizing unlicensed drivers. The then Immigration and Naturalization Service didn't allow me to talk to human to report this criminal and find out whether they would pursue him.

If it were up to me, anyone, illegal alien or otherwise, driving without insurance, a drivers license, or both would be taken into custody along with the car he was driving. Release of the perp and the vehicle would be contingent upon the perp posting a bond sufficient to cover the monetary penalty and any prima facie personal injury or property damages caused by the perp.  Any no contest or finding of guilt should require compensation to any victim.

Clinton and Dodd are both corporatist hacks.

by bdungan 2007-10-31 09:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Defending Immigrant Driver's Licenses

Let's start by saying that the vast majority of people don't like illegal immigration.  Not even undocumented immigrants (it is interesting that some people think the undocumented come here in that status because they rather be "illegal."  the reality is there are no legal channels for the great majority of them, but there are jobs).
Which begs for doing something to fix the system, not running away from it.

But that aside...

If i am reading some of the comments here correctly:

  • Voting. Some are are buying into the voter fraud arguments Republicans often use to pass laws that repress voting.  Evidence collected by State Attorneys General (both R and D) shows that voting by ineligible immigrants is not a concern, and this is not where those concerned with voter fraud should concentrate their efforts.  It does rile people out though, and it's a good diversionary tactic.  Interesting to see some here buy it.
  • "Illegal immigration is a threat to all of our most cherished causes"  Wow.  Who would have thought?  The most vulnerable on our society are the causes of all our woes.  They must be faking their true power just long enough to do us in.  Who's next?  The poor and disenfranchised, regardless of status?
  • "It's a loser issue" so it's taxes, some would argue, and yet we know that no government worth a spit can function without them.  It's how efficient and responsive you are in their use and bringing people along to realize and support the value.  The American people want solutions to the issue of immigration, so far, they've gotten a lot of hot rhetoric and tactics that are tearing communities apart.  I certainly hope Dems have the courage to choose a different path.
  • It's not about racism.  No, not for most.  Many people are concerned that the problem is not being solved and frustration is generating antagonism.  But the roots of many of the groups driving this debate on the anti-immigrant side are linked to the nativist movement, and to simply dismiss the real consequences this debate is having on the fabric of our society is as myopic as saying everyone concerned with immigration is racist.  Ask Latino citizens and legal immigrants in Virginia what consequences the debate there has had on them; look at comments from those who are now "suspect" because they look "illegal."

Very interesting indeed.

by Clarissa 2007-11-01 07:09AM | 0 recs

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