Hoyer needs to go -- he has been a miserable failure as whip on economic issues.

Don't know how effective they'd be as leader, but I'd love to see the spot go to someone like John Conyers or John Dingell, solid liberals who've been around forever.

But for now, I'm going to focus on winning back the House first.

Hoyer is a hack and far from being a progressive on anything. I used to think Murtha was a hack, too, but he's been impressive on the Iraq war and probably wouln't be any more of a "conservative" than Hoyer.

 I would agree that winning back the house must come first, but then we must decided who we want leading the band. Muthra is a good soldier.  But so was Curtis LeMay. Kennedy  famously said, "If the time comes, I want LeMay  to be in the lead plane, but I don't want him chosing the targets."  It is the same thing with Boxer saying that Joe was fine with her.  Hillary didn't show up. Nancy would be third in line for the PRESIDENCY, if we win.  The question is who is going to convince THEM that  WE are on the right path?  Jane tried with Boxer but I don't think THEY (those democrats) get it.   Yes, there is unrest because as Lincoln pointed out the test of a person is not if they can suffer hardship with honor, but if they can manage to deal with power with honor.  Everybody can be the Cubs and be cool but it is hard to be the Yankee's and have people care about you.  Winning and losing are not what it is about. It is about governing, so we need to find those people who can use power for the common good.  Howard Dean has been a very good example of how that can be done.  

First,  LeMay paid the Japanese back for Pearl Harbor tenfold so you the guy ain't all bad.

Second, let's win the damn house first before we start measuring the drapes and fighting amongst ourselves.  

Third, I hope everyone in Virginia votes for Harris Miller on Tuesday.

Fourth, say what you want about the first three point, the Replacements are one of the greatest bands ever.  

politics....power....why not.  Some one has to stand up.  Murthra might be the guy but....the times they are a changin'.

Conservative on Social Issues.

It is kind of hard for anyone outside the House to analyze this challenge, because there's so much inside baseball going on. Steny and Pelosi have been rivals for a long time, and she's made every attempt to marginalize his allies (she was probably responsible for John Larson's upset victory over Joe Crowley). Murtha's been her pointman since her run for minority whip, and its hard to believe that he'd announce this without her tacit approval. However, Hoyer has categorically declined to consider challenging Pelosi for the speakership, and as Mr. Singer has already pointed put, he's been an excellent whip in terms of uniting the party. Moreover, he stuck his neck out for her this week by backing her 100% on removing Jefferson, by praising her and by again categorically refusing to consider challenging her, even if the dems fail to gain the majority this November. Pelosi would have to be a really vindictive person to go and stab Hoyer in the back after that, and I personally don't think she's that mean-spirited. There has to be something else going on here under the surface-hence, the comment that this is all inside baseball.

I think John Murtha's an awesome guy, and would make a terrific Majority Leader. However, I think Hoyer would be an even better Leader. I think its unfortunate that Murtha put this out there now. It may get people talking about a dem majority, but it will also almost certainly encourage dissention and backstabbing in the ranks when we all need to be united.  

While Hoyer may be a good whip in some ways, I absolutely will not forgive him for deciding not to whip on CAFTA and the bankruptcy bill.  CAFTA is most likely going to kill literally thousands of people (since they will no longer be able to afford their medicine because of the IP provisions, which are really the heart of the bill) and the bankruptcy bill will send tons of people out of their homes.

Even without Hoyer's wrong position on Iraq, I want him replaced as whip, be that Murtha or someone else who would not refuse to whip on critical votes.

To his credit, he dropped it on a Friday afternoon so that it would only be a story for insiders.

I was kind of surprised that Murtha went public on wanting this job. He's been in Congree a long time and has never shown a big interest in being part of the "face" of the House. Murtha was quoted as saying he spoke with Pelosi and she neither encouraged nor discouraged him about making a run.
(Of course Ed Rendell did the same thing to Joe Hoeffel when Joe asked Ed about running for LtGov - remained neutral - and two days later Rendell reversed field and got Joe to drop out.)

OTOH, Murtha surprised me by not retiring when he was thrown into a remapped district with another Dem, Frank Mascara. There was a very, very nasty primary campaign from both men. Murtha clearly wanted to win and showed he'd do anything to do so. Murtha was like an institution and before the 2000 redistricting never really had too work too hard to defend his seat.

Agree there's a lot of "inside baseball" going on. It could be that by Murtha going public it helps Dems on the military, defense and security issues.

That said, there will be a caucus vote and we'll
see who comes out on top.

Wouldn't Pelosi be "majority leader" if the Dems retake congress? What am I missing here?

Isn't it possible that Democrats are more united in spite of Hoyer, not because of him?

Folks seem to be forgetting that Murtha is just about to turn 74.  Even if he wins this fight, he's not going to be there long.  

Hence the invetible conclusion: The main impact of this is going to be to derail Hoyer's ascent to power, and Hoyer is definitely someone who is deeply inimical to the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party.  That means that this is a good thing, any way you slice it.

For oursiders like us, there's no telling now who would take over after Murtha, we only know that it won't be long until someone does.  In fact, Pelosi and that someone might well have engineered this move behind the scenes.  We only know that getting Hoyer out of there will be a good thing for the party in the long run. A very good thing.

Hoyer undermines the goal of democratic control of the House. By essentially backing Bush on Iraq he erodes the central issue before the American electorate. He needs to go!

If the Dems lose the House this fall,that is good enough reason for me to dump both Pelosi and Hoyer. However,the Dems will only lose if: 1)KKKarl orders another 9/11 attack on US. 2)The GOP successfully plays the "I hate brown people" card. 3)KKKarl gets more Diebold machies installed.

Hoyer supports the Iraqi war, voted for CAFTA, and voted for the COPE legislation that fails to protect net neutrality.  How can Hoyer be an effective leader of Democrats if they are in any way seeking to distinguish themselves from Republicans?  I would like to see two parties in Congress, not just one corporate-worshipping, sell-out-Americans party.
Speaking of corporate-worshipping, didn't Miller lobby in support of NAFTA and CAFTA?  Isn't he a big proponent of outsourcing?  He sounds like a stealth Repub in Dem camouflage.

The caucus votes will be all but decided before election day. Emanuel has been using the DCCC to push right wing candidates so that the DLC'ers will be in better position the better the election results. Murtha needs to make his case now to the current members.

I'm surprised this hasn't hit the papers earlier.

Hoyer has been a good whip... he has the vote counting and vote twsiting skills necessary for the position.  He didn't whip on CAFTA because the CAUCUS decided not to whip on CAFTA -- Hoyer doesn't determine what to whip or not to whip -- if he isn't voting the way of the party as a whole then the process is to use deputy whips if the issue is one the party wants to count.

Second -- Party leadership is about capability and Hoyer is very capable.  Yes he is a political insider but that is what makes him effective.  The Democrats need people who deeply know the rules, have contacts in the lobbying community and can mastermind legislative victories. Many Republicans didn't agree with DeLay on the issues but understood his skill at vote counting/whipping -- and that is a skill the Democrats have lacked even when they have been in charge. Hoyer has shown he is that guy -- and while I don't always agree with his votes, he is a good member.

Murtha is conservative on issues -- and frankly shouldn't have announced this right now -- we have other fish to fry, so to speak.  Murtha is a good man, but I don't see why he should become Majority Leader.

Hoyer has time and time again put the desires of the "blue dog" rightist corporate Democrats over the needs of the Democrats in general. He leads the blue dog caucus, that so frequently.

Hoyer. Must. Go.

At least in terms of leadership...
you want to see a Dem caucus really get things done?
Try having a whip who doesn't sabotage Democratic stategy if it supports workers.

Hoyer never wanted to be whip, he wanted to be the Leader, and he acts like he is the leader anyway a lot of the time... which is bad for us.

Have you guys been paying attention?
This is the guy that criticized Stephen Colbert for no apparant reason.

I fully support this effort.
While I agree wholehearedly with Murtha on the war, I have questions about his take on other issues, but at least he and Pelosi have an alliance and are working together.

-C.

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At least in terms of leadership...
you want to see a Dem caucus really get things done?
Try having a whip who doesn't sabotage Democratic stategy if it supports workers.

Hoyer never wanted to be whip, he wanted to be the Leader, and he acts like he is the leader anyway a lot of the time... which is bad for us.

Have you guys been paying attention?
This is the guy that criticized Stephen Colbert for no apparant reason.

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