African-Americans And the 2008 Primaries

One of the conventional wisdom lines on 2008 has long been that Hillary Clinton would have the overwhelming support of African-American voters in the Democratic primary, and thus she was nearly a lock for the nomination. A new diary by Anthony de Jesus over at Dailykos pointed me to some interesting crosstabs on the latest national primary trial heat by Pew that offered the first bit of actual evidence I hae ever seen with which to test this piece of CW. A quick glance at the chart ont he right shows that it is both true and not true.

As you can see, even with Obama in the poll, Clinton does noticeably better among Black Protestants than she does among any other group in the crosstab. In fact, there isn't really any actual difference between Clinton's performance among any of the groups except that she does very well among African-Americans. However, he support among African-Americans is not some monolithic voting block that it is often made out to be. She does only have 54% of African-American support, and that is when she leads the field in name ID and before any actual campaigning has begun.

Since MyDD has basically just become a blog to talk about Obama now, these crosstabs show a couple of other interesting things. First, it shows that Clinton's lead on Obama might indeed be very soft, given that it is largely predicated upon a huge advantage among African-American Protestants, and presumably that would be a demographic where Obama could make up a lot of ground. Second, it shows that her current lead might be understated, since there is no way that African-American Protestants only compose 14% of the Democratic electorate (then again, considering the states that will choose the nominee, maybe it isn't understated after all). Anyway, isn't the notion that African-Americans would blindly line up behind one candiate no matter what a little um, condescending toward African-Americans? I imagine that as the primaries go on, African-Americans will be pretty much just as split over their prefence as any other demographic with the primary electorate.

Of course, the difference between the crosstabs appears to be so small, that we should once again be reminded the role that name ID plays in polls like this. Basically everyone, no matter their demographic, is just going with who they know. Yes, it is a little more complicated than that, but not drastically so. It is also interesting that among Republicans, white Catholics really like Rudy Giuliani. That probably has something to do with his base of support being in the northeast, where there are more white Catholics than any other region of the country.

Tags: Democrats, Demographics, President 2008 (all tags)

Comments

28 Comments

Re: African-Americans And the 2008 Primaries

There is something else that polls shows, African American opinion and netroots opinion are polls apart. This is something that became very obvious in the Virginia Senate primary. It is a serious weakness of netroots.

So if you are African American and reading this, please start blogging!

by Alice Marshall 2006-12-05 11:27AM | 0 recs
Re: African-Americans And the 2008 Primaries

should be poles apart, preview is our friend.

by Alice Marshall 2006-12-05 11:28AM | 0 recs
Re: African-Americans And the 2008 Primaries
Well, it actually shows the core of the core of netroots opinion--regular blog readers--to be different from everyone in the party.

It has been that way before. the question is what ipact will that core have on changing the opinion of others?
by Chris Bowers 2006-12-05 11:37AM | 0 recs
Re: African-Americans And the 2008 Primaries

Another thing to note here is that there are only 102 Black Protestants in this sample. That basically means that essentially 54 Black Protestants chose Clinton and 21 chose Obama. With such an exceedingly small sample size I would be to rush to judgment about Clinton's support among this group.

by blisteredfingers 2006-12-05 11:41AM | 0 recs
Obama and Seculars

One of Obama's big things is that he can talk to religious voters, right? And the rest of the Democratic party "need to learn how" right?

Well, secular voters give him more support than any other group.

I'm not trying to knock Obama here -- Jimm Webb was incredibly popular in NoVa precisely because NoVa voters thought he would do well in southside, this seems to be a similar effect.

The difference is, Jim Webb didn't keep saying "Democrats suck at appealing to southside, do it like this." That said, Webb did do well in southside, and I think Obama has the potential to do well, as long he doesn't make his campaign into a 101 on how Democrats can reach religious voters.

by msnook 2006-12-05 11:50AM | 0 recs
Re: African-Americans And the 2008 Primaries

When it comes to the African-American vote and HRC, Obama is going to have a rude awakening if he thinks that by being black he's going to make inroads.  No links but I have seen many many articles, interviews, etc. that indicate that Hillary's support amongst black women in particular is because of how she dealt with a philandering Bill.

For some reason, AA women just love her.  Gender and experience may trump race and star-fucking on this one.

by jgarcia 2006-12-05 11:50AM | 0 recs
Re: African-Americans And the 2008 Primaries

I still believe Obama's support among black voters in the primary will be much stronger than this is indicating.  Right now a lot of voters, African-American included, know little about Obama.    They're not going to blindly follow Obama simply because he's black.  However, I have to imagine he will be exciting to African-American voters once they see how good of a candidate he is.  Having a black President can go a long way toward healing the racial divide in America.  For a minority that has a history of oppression in America to have the chance to have a fellow black man as President of the United States is huge.

Basically Hillary's support is tapped out at 54% she will only bleed support from here on out.  Once Gore decides not to run I highly doubt his 10% will go to her.  When it's all said and done i am extremely confident Obama's support among black voters will be much stronger than Hillary's.  

by blueryan 2006-12-05 11:53AM | 0 recs
Re: African-Americans And the 2008 Primaries

Am I the only one extraordinarily excited about the prospect of a Guiliani Republican nomination? Of course, he won't make it pass the primaries, but consider the consequences. Assume we pair him up with any half-assed Democratic candidate.

Can you imagine any evangelical voting in that election? It would destroy turnout among the Republican base. Not to say it'd be a cakewalk to defeat him--for some reason lots of independents like him. But he'd still be far from unstoppable for the Presidency, and on the chance he won I can't see him doing anything much worse than Bayh would.

Especially with the new massively Democratic Congress. Downticket gains would be absolutely incredible. No Republican base, and the people who can get themselves out of bed to vote for Guiliani aren't going to be voting en masse for any given Republican. I can maybe see some slight gains in the Northeast for them, but everywhere else throughout the country we get Democrat after Democrat elected.

by Zephyrus 2006-12-05 11:55AM | 0 recs
monolithicness of black voters

The only thing monolithic about black voters is they don't vote republican.

Besides that, they vote for who they trust -- especially black candidates (if they are convincingly "black") and ballot measures (ballot measures don't lie) -- and Hillary has earned their trust. It's going to be hard even for Obama to shake that, unless he can convince them that he really "identifies" with them.

He's not going to want to do that, because he's trying to reach moderate whites for the general. Honestly, I think it's a bit.. cowardly. But it's smart. If he wins the primary on white votes, he won't have to compete for black votes in the general -- they'll turn out to vote for a black Democratic presidential candidate no matter what.

One thing I've never heard anyone talk about so far is how incredibly good black voter turnout will (may) be if a Black man is the Democratic nominee, and what swingish states that will have an impact on.

by msnook 2006-12-05 12:02PM | 0 recs
Edwards

Am I reading the chart right that Edwards is only getting 2% of the black vote in this sample?

My theory for months has been that Obama would devastate Edwards and would make it a Clinton vs Obama race if no one else can get out of the second tier.

by robliberal 2006-12-05 12:20PM | 0 recs
If Obama and Clinton are splitting black votes...

...then he's hurting her more than he's hurting Edwards.

by MeanBoneII 2006-12-05 12:45PM | 0 recs
Re: If Obama and Clinton are splitting black votes

It would not be a factor in Iowa and NH but Edwards would need a large part of the black vote in the Southern primaries afterwards to have a shot at overtaking Clinton and Obama. If they get the bulk of the black vote vote they will be positioned to finish 1st and 2nd (and vice versa) in a long line of primaries.

by robliberal 2006-12-05 12:59PM | 0 recs
South Carolina primary 2004 exit poll

Link

Edwards dominated the white vote, and held his own among blacks. Having two rivals fighting over the black vote next time is much better for him than having just one taking most of it.

by MeanBoneII 2006-12-05 01:37PM | 0 recs
Re: South Carolina primary 2004 exit poll

Sharpton got 20% but was not a viable candidate in 2004. Obama will likely substantially impove on that. Clinton will get a very large share as well. That could potentially leave Edwards with less of a share of the black vote than he got in 2004. If Clinton and Obama have the momentum coming into SC that will also make it less likely voters from any demographic groups will stick with Edwards if they think Clinton or Obama will end up being the nominee. If Obama was not in the race I think Edwards would have a clear shot at winning SC. I would not be surprised if Clinton or Obama win in 2008 or if Edwards barely edges them.  

by robliberal 2006-12-05 01:52PM | 0 recs
Re: African-Americans and the 2008 Primaries

Obama (Kenya-born father) is like Powell (Jamaica-born parents) in being immigrant African American. Do African Americans relate differently to them than to, say, Jesse Jackson and Alan Keyes, whose roots are centuries deep?

by joyful alternative 2006-12-05 12:59PM | 0 recs
Re: African-Americans and the 2008 Primaries

Personally I was actually pretty surprised at the way everyone seems to be saying Obama will automatically get African American support.  

I think that he certainly can get it, but his skin color will probably only have a small effect.  If anything it will be because of him speaking at churches.

by sterra 2006-12-05 01:10PM | 0 recs
Re: African-Americans and the 2008 Primaries

This is where Mrs. Obama is of great help to her husband. I liked Colin Powell, and even though it could have been an issue - the immigrant part of it- the fact that his wife was from a family ' in good standing' in Birmingham, meant that Powell was in a front seat to what was happening at that time, and didn't give the usual immigrant rigamaroll about American Born Blacks. So, the immigrant ' issue' was never an issue for 'the community' at large.

Mrs. Obama is an asset to her husband in that she gives him 'Black cred'. She's has the right kind of background: two parents, but working class parents, from a solid middle-class bungalow neighborhood on the South Side of Chicago. The parents raised their children to be ' strivers'.

THEY might not have had all the opportunities, but their children would, and off they went - to PRINCETON, and then Mrs. Obama, to Harvard Law. One looks at Michelle Obama and sees what they'd want for their sister, daughter, niece, granddaughter: pretty, smart as hell,down to earth,  intelligent, well educated BLACK woman(and yes, I do mean skin color and shade), who obviously loves and supports 'her man'. And don't think that this has gone unnoticed by the millions of potential Black female voters out there. Mrs. Obama is definitely an asset for the Senator.

by rikyrah 2006-12-05 06:59PM | 0 recs
Re: African-Americans and the 2008 Primaries

Thanks, Rikyrah. That's good information, and reassuring, too. I worry when white people say how black people will feel, vote, react, etc., just because a candidate is black, and I hadn't considered that wife factor. (Obama is among my small group of potential candidates I might campaign for, based on an Illinois Deanie friend's fervor since his early Senate primary days and on hearing positive things about him on Sundays because he's my coreligionist.)

by joyful alternative 2006-12-06 06:21AM | 0 recs
Hmm

Aside from this demographics stuff, there's something entirely different which I am finding extremely interesting about this poll.

I just ran across this little tidbit about a separate poll:

When Gallup asked a sample of people were asked who they wanted to be elected president in 2008, the largest percentage of respondents said "I don't know."

In fact, Gallup said 38 percent of respondents said "I don't know."

By contrast, senators Hillary Clinton, a New York Democrat, and John McCain, an Arizona Republica, came in at 15 percent and 11 percent, respectively.

Everyone else came in at single digits: Sen. Barack Obama, the Illinois Democrat, came in at six percent. Former New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani was at five percent.

Sen. John Kerry, the Massacusetts Democrat and Democratic presidential nominee in 2004, barely registered at 1 percent, the same as former Secretary of State Colin Powell who has expressed no public interest in making the race [as well as Al Gore].

Gallup didn't read off a list of candidates' names. Instead it asked respondents to supply the name.

Al Gore, John Edwards and Condoleeza Rice each came in at 2 percent respectively.

I am finding the discrepancy between the Pew "pick a nominee" and the Gallup "pick a president" poll fascinating.

In particular I'm finding it interesting some of the people who score quite high on the nomination poll, but quite low on the presidential poll. Giuliani is the most extreme example-- leading the nomination poll but doing quite poorly compared to other Republicans in the presidential poll-- but Rice, Edwards and Gore also get the same effect.

What to make of this?

Different polling methodologies? Statistical error?

Increased support for McCain, Clinton and Obama among independents combined with decreased support for Giuliani, Rice, Gore and Edwards among independents, since true independents were not included in the nomination poll?

Did Giuliani, Rice and co. lose all their votes to "Don't know" or "A Republican", which were options in the presidential poll but not the nomination one?

Or is it because the presidential poll offered no options, and people are more likely to select (for example) Gore if the choice is specifically offered to them?

What's going on here?

Incidentally, meanwhile, one thing that I do think is clear from ALL of these polls is that Hillary Clinton is WAY more popular than the "netroots" or "blogosphere" or whatever would like to think.

by Silent sound 2006-12-05 02:51PM | 0 recs
Clinton support tapped out?

Clinton will have to work very hard to win the primaries, but I don't agree with the argument that her high name-id means her current poll numbers among Democrats are as high as she can go. Gore's name ID is at least as high and no-one argues that he has peaked.

It seems to me that given the huge amount of free publicity Obama has gotten, the relative quiet of any nascent Clinton campaign and the stablilty of her overall support that she probably has a lot of room to improve her poll numbers. Obama-mania has not taken much from her and she has not begun campaigning.

I'm more interested in Edwards and Richardson, but it is foolish to think that Clinton will be easy to beat. Just as it was foolish to speculate that she wouldn't run, or perhaps that was whistling in the dark.

by souvarine 2006-12-05 02:54PM | 0 recs
Re: African-Americans And the 2008 Primaries

I think it is important to note that HRC's support amongst the black community has a lot to do with Bill.  That's not to say that she isn't an appealing candidate in her own right, but that her support there could be very soft.  Obvious polling done 2 years out has pretty much no relation to actual results anyways, but there is a very good chance that she will lose her advantage amongst African Americans once the campaigning actually begins and more voters see Barack Obama.  By that time, Clinton's relationship with her husband, while still an asset, will be far less important.

No doubt she would want to send Bill to black constituencies to campaign, but I'm of the belief that he'll be limited in his ability to help her overtly.  But there is no precedent for something like this, so we'll see.  That, however, is a subject for another discussion.

by LPMandrake 2006-12-05 03:33PM | 0 recs
Re: African-Americans And the 2008 Primaries

Bill Clinton spoke at the COGIC church in Memphis when he was campaigning for Harold Ford. After he spoke he walked right out into the crowd with little security (unlike Bush who needs a buffer zone of several blocks between him and the public) and the people mobbed him. He stayed a lengthy time until he could shake hands and touch as many people as he could reach. He wil do well in getting votes for Hillary.

by robliberal 2006-12-05 06:01PM | 0 recs
Re: African-Americans And the 2008 Primaries
It all depends alot on how the question was asked.  If posed "if so and so were to run would you support this or that person"  Right now, many people know Hillary is definitly running though alot don't want her to and she has not formerly announced.  Obama is still up in the air regarding his wife.
That said, African American voters are like anyone else.  They vote according to who speaks to them personally.  Of course, if Obama gets in they would support him as a solidary thing.  
As for Hillary, many would vote for her the same as alot of whites would - they think it's a way to get Bill back.  Problem is, that won't happen.  That is a pipe dream.
by vwcat 2006-12-05 04:16PM | 0 recs
Re: African-Americans And the 2008 Primaries

As a Black woman, I totally want Barack Obama to run. And, I'd vote for him. While it is not a given that he'd get the overwhelming support of the Black community, he'd get a great deal of it. HE is comfortable in those Southern Black churches; Hillary is not. Bill is, but she isn't. And, Mrs. Obama is comfortable too. She's overlooked, but is no less an asset to Obama than Bill is to Hillary.

I want him to run, and hope he does.

" Anyone but Hillary" is my refrain and I mean it.

by rikyrah 2006-12-05 06:50PM | 0 recs
Re: African-Americans And the 2008 Primaries

Michelle Obama is charismatic and extremely capable.  She's a great person and would be a huge asset on the campaign trail.  But as good an asset as the former (and last Democratic) President of the United States?  That's a stretch.  I'd equate her more to Hillary circa 1992.  

by LPMandrake 2006-12-05 09:48PM | 0 recs
Re: African-Americans And the 2008 Primaries

Just a few comments ..

Senator Clinton's popularity with black voters doesn't have as much to do with Bill Clinton as some of you seem to think.  It is understandable that you would think that, because they do love Bill (but who doesn't?) -- but my theory re Hillary is that legions of voters have pledged (for want of a better word) their loyalty to her based on her long history of helping working mothers; single mothers; teachers; daycare programs for pre-school-aged kids, etc.  If Hillary has touched anyone it is women - the minorities for sure, but just look at the white suburban and exurban women voters who came over to her side this past election.

Hillary has that demographic; which doesn't mean she won't lose some of it to say, Obama, but I predict she will lose the youngest black voting demographic to Obama because he's sexy and they see him as an "idol".  

Another important note about Hillary; and I have been tracking her very closely for four years now and I mean every article; every speech; every poll and I attend as many of her events as I can, given my schedule .... she has the older voters in a trance.  A huge percentage of retirees.  Why?  Because she sits on the Committee of Health, Education, Labor and Pensions; the subcommittee on Security and Aging; and a Special Committee on Aging.  She has earned the trust of senior citizens but also those between retirement and senior.  And she works hard on their behalf.

HRC is going to be hard to beat.  I think Obama is great.  But when his record is held up against hers, he's going to shrink.  There is no way he can compete with HRC's legislative record.  For those who think she doesn't have one - think again.  She's got all her bases covered.  All of them.

And she just hired Karen Hicks, the super-gal who managed Dean's campaign in 2004.  I think HRC's team is up to almost 40 people now and they are tops in their field.

If Obama throws his hat in the ring and wins the Dem nomination, I think it will be kind of a shame as he simply hasn't put the effort in nor had the time to.  If HRC wins the nomination and chooses Obama as her running mate, then he has 8 years to groom for the Presidency in 2016.  If Obama wins the Dem nomination, does anyone here really think he could take on Rudy or McCain?  These are tough, seasoned politicians.  And if Obama loses, then his chances are shot for a future run and we have 8 more years of rightwing control.

All things to think about.  

 

by marycontrary 2006-12-05 11:51PM | 0 recs
Re: African-Americans And the 2008 Primaries

Just to give you folks an idea of what Hillary brings to the table. This is why she has a following.  This has nothing to do with Big Dog, other than the fact that she probably took the hard and long way to political success by spending 12 years in Arkansas and 8 years as First Lady, and she did it for a President who embarrassed her pretty badly with his sexual proclivities.  Now, he owes her!  And believe me, once she announces she will run for President, he will be her biggest promoter.  This is what Obama, Edwards, Vilsack are up against.  And HRC has her own huge money machine that doesn't overlap with Bill's.  I mean, you may not like the woman, but she's a rockstar in her own right. I would vote for her.  I also like Wes Clark, but where is he???  And I read this morning that he has no money for a campaign.

Senator Hillary Clinton:
Graduate of Yale Law School
Post-graduate Study: Children and Medicine, Yale Child Study Center
Staff Attorney for The Children's Defense Fund

First Lady of Arkansas - 12 years
Chaired the Arkansas Educational Standards Committee
Co-founded the Arkansas Advocates for Children & Families
Served on board of the Arkansas Children's Hospital Legal Services
Served on board of Children's Defense Fund.
All while working as an attorney with the Rose Law Firm
Named one of the 100 Most Influential Lawyers in America by National Law Journal

First Lady of the United States - 8 years
Directly involved in policy-making, as First Lady, in three major areas:
The Clinton Healthcare Plan
-The Adoption & Safe Families Act
-The Children's Health Program
-Traveled the world working for women and education in second and third-world countries.

United States Senator for 6 years (first First Lady to ever run for office)
Sponsored and Co-Sponsored 889 Bills & Resolutions, to date, including:
-Homeland Security Appropriations funding of $300 million to make NY safer/more secure
-The ENHANCE Act (to ensure needed help arrives near callers employing 911) - signed into law
-Wrote the legislation for Election Reform
-Wrote the legislation for the Increase The Minimum Wage Act
-Fought for decision on PlanB and won - PlanB approved
-Introduced legislation to Restructure FEMA
Introduced legislation for Independent Commission to Investigate Katrina Relief Efforts
-Created the "Heroes At Home" initiative, as an amendment  to the DoD Appropriations Bill

Serves on:
-Committee on Armed Services:
-Subcommittee on Emerging Threats and Capabilities
-Subcommittee on Airland
-Subcommittee on Readiness & Management Support
-Subcommittee on Personnel
-Committee on Environment/Public Works
-Subcommittee on Transportation and Infrastructure
-Subcommittee on Fisheries, Wildlife &
-Committee on Health, Education, Labor, Pensions
-Subcommittee on Security & Aging
-Subcommittee on Education & Early Childhood Development
-Special Committee on Aging

Endorsed by New York Times; New York Post;  the largest unions in the State of NY; Sierra Club

Re-elected to the Senate by 69% of NY voters

Author of four books
Winner of Grammy Award for Best Spoken Word Album (1997
Winner of 36 International Awards and Honors, including:
-the Reserve Officers Association's National President's Award (2006)
-Induction into the National Women's Hall of Fame (2005)
-5th on Forbes List of 100 Most Influential Women
-The Energy Leadership Award from the U.S. Energy Association (2006)

-Established C.A.P. (with John Podesta) - the Center For American Progress
-Established HillPac which works to elect government officials

by marycontrary 2006-12-06 12:13AM | 0 recs
Secular vote on the republican side

I notice that there was not enough secular votes to analyze data on the repub side. I find that interesting as no one says the repubs have to figure out how to reach out to non-religious voters. If they keep going to their base then it will keep turning these people off.

by The Professor 2006-12-06 06:22AM | 0 recs

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