Battle Fatigue

The blogometer has an interesting insight today.

Since 11/7, there has been a marked divergence in right and left blog focus when it comes to '08. While plenty of pro and con Dem WH '08 posts can be found on lefty blogs, there has also been a noticeable and public effort to refrain from attacking the candidates. Instead, '08 concern has been concentrated on identifying which down ballot races the netroots want to be a factor in. The right side of the sphere is completely different. One can't glance at RedState with out reading some hit piece on a GOP WH '08 candidate. Meanwhile, there is nary a mention of which down ballot races the righties want to target. We speculate that having been around the block once, the netroots grey tooths don't want to relive the nasty fights they had in '04, while for the righty 'sphere this is their maiden contested primary.

I don't agree with the conclusion here, but I'm not really sure why the right-wing blogs are all over 2008, and the liberal blogs are mostly reticent to plunge in.  I suspect this has to do with the fact that the right-wing blogosphere is merely a forum for already existing conservative movement institutions, whereas the liberal blogs actually represent a newly organized set of progressives.  Essentially, they want to argue, we want to make a difference.

Any thoughts?

Tags: 2008 (all tags)

Comments

29 Comments

Re: Battle Fatigue

I suspect it is more because whereas the liberals/left/DLC are divided on strategy, the right is divided by idealogical differences- are we going to be small government libertarian, theocon, paleocon, moderate main street, Wall Street, xenophobic, - what are we going to be? It was easier to keep all the faultlines out of view when they all thought they had a stake in the power that they had- now that they are off the wheels, they are doing what the Democrats did. Questioning which is the right pathway, and as a result each candidate becomes a lense- if my guess is right- to judge the next direction for conservatism.

by bruh21 2006-12-22 07:05AM | 0 recs
Re: Battle Fatigue

Hmmm... I'd agree somewhat with blogometer on this, but maybe not to that extent.   I'm still seeing a distressing trend even on lefty blogs to compete with other candidates by tearing them down, rather than trying to argue why one's own candidate is better.

That being said... the more I think about it, the more I would agree that the overall trend has been good on our side.  Lots more attempts to restrain unnecessary negativity.

I think it might just be that we're feeling pretty pumped and optimistic right now, while a lot on the right are feeling incredibly frustrated by the midterms and Bush.  And that frustration is more likely to channel itself into negativity, acting out, etc.

Personally, I hope we can keep up the good trend on the left.  I love competition, but for once, I'd love to make it "why my guy is even better" rather than "why my guy is the least worst and your guy is the spawn of Satan."

by jhlinko 2006-12-22 07:06AM | 0 recs
Re: Battle Fatigue

You missed the point of the post, btw.  

I'm still seeing a distressing trend even on lefty blogs to compete with other candidates by tearing them down, rather than trying to argue why one's own candidate is better.

Whatever.  There's nothing inherently good about positivity.  There is something illiberal and starfuckerish about being distressed at the lack of positivity in political discourse.  

There's a lot wrong with how we do politics in this country, and rose-colored glasses are ridiculous when you don't know any better, but they are immoral when you do.  And John, you know better.

by Matt Stoller 2006-12-22 07:51AM | 0 recs
Re: Battle Fatigue

Love ya, Matt, but I think you missed the point of my post.   ;)

This is not about railing on what's wrong with politics -- go for it.  My problem is specifically with Democrats (in the blogoshpere or otherwise) tearing each other's candidates down for no good reason -- but simply because they are not the candidates they support.

There's nothing wrong with good, healthy debate and competition between candidates.  And when there are negatives, they should be pointed out.

But surely you remember some of the ridiculous posts railing on Clark back in '03, right?  Not even real critiques, just whiney jerks who were pissed off that we "dared" to try to bring someone else into the race, rather than support their candidates.  They were so obsessed with the horse race part, they weren't even addressing the actual politics.

And I'm seeing some of that again with Obama this time around.  Real critiques are fine and part of the game, but some of what's out there is just one step above the wingnuts who rail on him because of his middle name.

by jhlinko 2006-12-22 09:37AM | 0 recs
Oh, and at the risk of ticking you off... ;)

Happy holidays to you.

by jhlinko 2006-12-22 09:46AM | 0 recs
Re: Battle Fatigue

My problem is specifically with Democrats (in the blogoshpere or otherwise) tearing each other's candidates down for no good reason -- but simply because they are not the candidates they support.

There's tremendous value in attacking candidates from an intellectually honest perspective.

by Matt Stoller 2006-12-22 10:01AM | 0 recs
Re: Battle Fatigue

That, I do agree with 100%.

by jhlinko 2006-12-22 10:11AM | 0 recs
Re: Battle Fatigue
But, not to the perile of the party good.
I see it as we are on the same side.  We support progressive ideas.  
Say, one person like Richardson and one likes Clark then we should respect the other and that candidate.  I should support say, the clark backer for thier right to like who they do and they should do the same for me.
If there is a legit reason not to like someone, like say, Hillary, okay.  But, If it's just because it's not, say Richardson, then I shouldn't just trash Clark because he is not my pick.
They are both legit candidates with strengths and weaknesses and we are on the side of progressive thinking.  
Besides, I think we lower ourselves when we act like rethugs.
by vwcat 2006-12-22 05:38PM | 0 recs
Another Factor Is Substance

Let's face it.  There's a lot more substantive discussions that can focuse elsewhere than the presidential race.  So far, the presidential discussions, while sometimes quite impassioned, have largely been fairly vacuous.  This makes them standard fare for the wingnut-o-sphere.  But for usins, not so much.

by Paul Rosenberg 2006-12-22 07:18AM | 0 recs
Re: Battle Fatigue

I care about progressives taking more seats in Congress in 08. I've already picked my presidential candidate, a progressive of experience and good judgement. No one else comes close to his qualifications. Unless someone similar appears - a governor perhaps - he is the man I'd work for, no one else, and if he isn't nominated, then I'll spend my time and energy on the House and Senate progressives.

I'm not interest in "buzz." George Bush had lots of buzz. American voters made a Huge error in judgement - twice. They were in thrall to appearance and entertainment values, not interested in finding out what a president is actually  in charge of and who would be good at  doing that job. No, people talked about whatever the entertainment media talked about and not about Bush the business failure, the student failure, the drunk, the convicted, the Vietnam avoider.

I read bloggers here and elsewhere who are still charmed by appearance and winning, when it's early enough yet to be reading resumes.

by mrobinsong 2006-12-22 07:31AM | 0 recs
Once, Really

Americans chose Bush only once. Gore actually won in 2000, and some people think Ohio wasn't really a fair vote in 2004.

by Mister Go 2006-12-22 09:58AM | 0 recs
We naturally focus more on positive than negative.

That's why we're progressives and they're cavemen.

by MeanBoneII 2006-12-22 07:42AM | 0 recs
They feel out of control

If, "the right-wing blogosphere is merely a forum for already existing conservative movement institutions", then I would say the right wing blog crankiness about '08 could be for two reasons.

First off, they like talking points, they like attacking in force, they like ganging up and the field is too dispersed now to allow for that.
Much of the discussion of GOP candidates is driven by the MSM picking their ponies for their horse race. This isn't the way that the right likes it, and the media discussion of McCain and Giulliani has got to anger them. Conservative movement institutions are not in control of the GOP candidate selection process right now.

Secondly, they are still stuck on supporting Bush. Some of the media is criticizing Bush now, or at least passing on information about how unpopular he is. After 6 years of right-wing blogs supporting him and of trying to portray his incompetence and anti-democratic rule as something heroic, turning their minds towards supporting someone else will be very difficult for them. It's too early for them to know whom they should support, and they don't know how to phrase the messages about '08. They are stuck on '04 just as Bush is.

by thief 2006-12-22 07:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Battle Fatigue

I think Matt makes a good point on the new organization of progressives versus merely giving an existing group a forum for conversation in the case of the Conservatives, but I think it goes a bit deeper.  

My two cents on why the Rigthy blogs are already going off on 08', is pretty simple; they got beat in november, bad. Now they are looking to find a Candidate who will heal the ever increasing cracks in their electoral coalition of Goldwater Conservatives, Christianists and Defense Hawks. They've got nothing positive to build on in '08 so there is significant dissent on what model to proceed with, whereas across the asile we've already got a lot more momentum to build on.

by bjschmid 2006-12-22 07:54AM | 0 recs
That's how the right-wing "debates"


One can't glance at RedState with out reading some hit piece on a GOP WH '08 candidate.

This is something that I've noticed time and time again.  Progressive movement argues policy, Conservative movement argues people.  Watch cable news and it goes like this:

Liberal:  I think my plan is good because...
Conservative:  Typical Liberal Pinko commie America Hater...

I don't know if it's because of ideology, personality, or institutes, but it's just something that I've noticed.

This is why someone like Ann Coulter freaks out when the 9/11 widows speak up.  She instantly wants to start tearing them down, but can't and freaks out about it.  Actually arguing the merits of policy for some reason didn't even enter her mind.

by maddogg 2006-12-22 08:15AM | 0 recs
Re: That's how the right-wing "debates"
You are so right on.  I think the right is conditioned to think like that.  They listen to attack radio and watch attack Fox news and they think to win an argument is to attack the person on a name calling level like a 10 year old.
Instead of saying they disagree because, they call names and even threaten.
We think in terms of policy and respect the other for thier ideas.  We don't call names because someone is in disagreement.  
by vwcat 2006-12-22 05:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Battle Fatigue
I think the progressive/liberal/Democratic blogs are probably ahead of the curve on the whole "building" meme, which includes all the down-ballot considerations, while the GOP is going to be engaged in a great incivil war.  (Never stop your enemy from self-destructing...stand back fifty paces and watch, don't participate.)
 
by InigoMontoya 2006-12-22 08:29AM | 0 recs
Re: Battle Fatigue

They lost and are not satisfied with their contenders. They are intent on winning in '08 whereas progressives have battle fatigue.

by nonwhiteperson 2006-12-22 08:39AM | 0 recs
Re: Battle Fatigue

Sonme very good comments here which all point to the fact that there are several reasons:

1) 06 hangover:  Dems are more positive now and Reps are negative due to their losses.  They're still smarting and they are angry.  The scapegoating process is still happening but it's now shifted into looking at 08.

2) Dems tend to argue policies and Reps, people.  That's a big generalization but it's been particularly true with the Bush administration and their priority on party unity.  To their downfall.

3) Partly as a result of #1 above, the Reps want to get 06 behind them and, partly as a result of #2, they are really focusing on people rather than positions.  Given the reality that the Bushies don't believe in government and governamental programs, why focus on policies?  It's all about the people and that's where their critical eye naturally lands.

4) And since it is about people not policies, with the Reps losing the legislative branch of governmental control their thoughts don't immediately go to recapturing it.  Rather they want to keep control of the "guy in charge" who can rewrite legislation as he sees fit (their view).  So they have even more invested in the executive branch and the presidency than the Dems do.  It's all top down to them.

God I hope we clean their clocks in 08.

by Working Class in Oregon 2006-12-22 08:42AM | 0 recs
Not true

If you accept this premise and you really think that the progressive blogosphere hasn't trashed any of the 2008 contenders, try writing something like

"I think John Kerry should be our nominee again next time."

I'm not necessarily saying he should be (although, truth be told, I have given him money since 2004)--my preferences run to Gore, Obama and Edwards first.  But there are any number of circumstances in which I could see Kerry becoming the nominee again, and I'd hate to see the vitriol spewed at him here and at dailykos be used by the right-wing spin machine against us.

Oppose him all you want, but let's not supply Karl Rove with quotes for his next 60-second ad on behalf of John McCain.

by rayspace 2006-12-22 08:48AM | 0 recs
Re: Battle Fatigue

Bush's legacy for the right is the imperial Presidency.  He has debased the currency of the other two branches of government and tried to usurp all power unto himself.  It's not surprising then, that the righty blogs consider the Presidency the real prize.

Add to that an humiliating defeat in 2006 and a realization that winning back Congress will be a long, hard slog, and you can almost understand their narrow focus.  If the President can trample Congress, then it's easier to focus on keeping one office than winning back dozens of them.  And if that imperial President will recast the entire goverment in his image, the ideology of that autocrat becomes an all-encompassing issue.

by katerina 2006-12-22 09:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Battle Fatigue

Are the lefty blogs really reticent?  For a short period, there was a blog-burst of anti-Obama stuff.  If you want to get a sense of the "secularists" that some people complain about, take a look at some of the Daily Kos diarists and their past comments and diaries and you'll notice that some of them show a pattern of being creeped out by Christianity and by religion in general.

If Joe Biden was polling higher, he'd have a lot of hitjobs laid out on him.  If Dennis Kucinich had a credible chance of winning, you'd see more talk of how he is a freaky, nutty elf.

On the left, there's a sense that we know who the candidates are and where they stand relative to each other.  On the right, they don't have that certainty, and when you have differing opinions floundering in a sea of despair, you have ideological pitbulls at each others' throats.  

We've also seen a lot of these candidates before.  Do we really have anything to add to Edwards and Kerry that we didn't know about them in 2004, except that they didn't seem to be fighters when it came to crunch time? Has Wesley Clark done anything to make you think more or less of him after two years?  With years of speculating about Hillary Clinton, haven't we all formed an opinion about her?  If Evan Bayh had announced that he were running instead of not running, wouldn't we have been subjected to more anti-DLC screeds? (And to be fair, they would contain a lot of justifiable discontent.)  If Bill Richardson gets traction in the poll, I expect another round of contentious blog posting similar to what we went through with Obama-rama.

Plus, the left is still concerned with what the Democrats should do in Congress. (see the debate over impeachment.)  Once we get a sense of where Pelosi and Reid are taking this country, we can devote more time to looking at candidates.

by Anthony de Jesus 2006-12-22 09:58AM | 0 recs
Re: Battle Fatigue

The down ballot issue may be due to the right assuming that 2006 was a freak year and they've got 60 obvious targets next year, whereas many Democrats believe it was a re-alignment election and want to strengthen congressional minorities.

Alternatively, it could stem from the more top-down model of the righty blogs, which makes it more difficult for them to intervene in local matters.

by Englishlefty 2006-12-22 01:23PM | 0 recs
Re: Battle Fatigue

Sometimes the simplest explanation is the best:

Their candidates suck.

I'm sorta serious here. They have a really bad field of candidates, very unattractive, I think, especially to the activists.

But I think the big reason is that the recriminations over '06 are spilling over into Presidential preferences like '02 spilled over into our discussions of the field (and gave a huge boost to Dean).

I think there are a lots of areas that show the superiority of liberal blogs over conservative ones, but I don't think this is one of them, really.

by BriVT 2006-12-22 04:30PM | 0 recs
Netroots are thinking more about 2007 than 2008

I really think that's the secret.  I see a lot of debates, for instance, about what Pelosi & Co. should do in the 101st hour of the new Congress.

But the rightwing netroots have little investment in what the new Congress actually does.  Their main reaction seems to be to try to build up Pelosi into some hideous abomination, without ever saying why.  But they realize there's no big conservative principle to go to the mats for here.

It's not like defeating a minimum wage hike is the hill the GOP wants to die on.  Nor is there some big principle in defending corporate advantages with respect to the Medicare prescription drug benefit or student loans.  They can't exactly say that holding hearings is somehow evil.  They've got nothin'.  

It's exactly the opposite of the lefty netroots' situation in early 2005, where we were fighting what felt like a goal-line stand to save Social Security.  We were all totally invested in that fight.  What fight in 2007 can similarly arouse the righty netroots?  There isn't one.

So they've moved on already; for them, it's already all but 2008.  Fine with me.  The more that the wingnuts are focused on 2008, the more we can get done in 2007.  And the more we get done in 2007, the better the 2008 terrain will be for the Dem nominee, regardless of who he or she may be.

by RT 2006-12-22 04:51PM | 0 recs
Re: Battle Fatigue
Righties are infamous for being very Jr. High school in thier thinking.  They love to fight, call names and generally demonize anyone handy rather than do constructive things.
The left is a bit more thoughtful and interesting in looking for solutions and ways of making sure we keep the dems in Washington on track and fix the mess of W.
We also have not been conditioned on a daily basis by talking heads to hate everyone and everything like the righties.  And when they have no one to demonize they go after thier own in a sense of withdrawl from the drug of hate.
I also don't think thier blogs are very organized or geared to the same things as ours.  Thier blogs seem to be more of a sound off, an internet call in show of righties thinking and disguntled angry white male syndrome.
Also, I think while we may not support a certain candidate we do respect someone else's right to support that person.  We may say why we don't but, dont see the candidate as evil.  Just someone we don't want to support.  We choose our candidates and we allow for others to support whoever and don't think it fair to trash them for thier own taste or thinking.
Afterall, when it comes down to it, we are on the same side.
by vwcat 2006-12-22 05:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Battle Fatigue

We need an every county policy for 07 and 08.  To do this we need a way of getting relatively small amounts of money (say $1000) for every candidate for every candidate for state office.  Remember reapportionment.

by Eli Rabett 2006-12-22 06:11PM | 0 recs
With George Allen destroyed

They're left with McC as the mainstream conservative candidate, and that's quite an oxymoron.

by Cyt 2006-12-22 10:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Battle Fatigue -- my guess is ...

We have a bunch of potential kickass candidates and a netroots that knows its own strength. The GOP, on the other hand, has a bunch of crap for prospects, and has a blogosphere full of impotent shills staring down the barrel of a decade in the minority, so they're kicking and screaming their heads off.

Restraint is a sign of maturity. They have none.

by msnook 2006-12-23 12:32AM | 0 recs

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