Come on, Foer

by Matt Stoller, Mon Jan 02, 2006 at 05:49:50 PM EST

Lots of good commentary sparked by this blog post by Franklin Foer, who I tend to regard very highly as a thinker.  

Last month, I wrote a column against the Mainstream Blogosphere. I argued that the MSB has made a grave mistake in relentlessly attacking the credibility of the New York Times and Washington Post. For decades, conservatives have been trying to shred these institutions. Now, the left-wing bloggers have made common cause with the media's conservative critics, trying to bring down the "mainstream media." The NSA domestic spy story has provided a powerful case study in why the left's attack is so dangerous. Here, the Times has exposed an important example of Bush's imperial presidency, a potentially pernicious violation of civil liberties. Instead of praising the Times for excellent reportage and bravely bucking presidential pleas to bury the story, the MSB has heaped disdain on the Times. They have trashed the Times for sins ranging from throwing the election to Bush to turning a blind eye to these abuses. (Hey, Atrios: When was the last time that you exposed such a big story?)

These attacks should be meaningless, except they're not. The administration has now launched an investigation into the leak that produced the Times story. This is a dangerous case that could seriously threaten the ability of reporters to do their jobs. And liberals should be apoplectic about the threat it represents. But instead of apoplexy, many in the MSB are sitting on their hands. The Bush administration has opened a new front in its war on the press, and the press has no defenders. Thanks to the MSB's sweeping, reckless criticisms, the Times has lost much of the credibility and authority that it needs to mount a robust defense. For this, the bloggers deserve some credit. Well done, guys.

I will note of course that I did actually compliment the New York Times for such excellent work, and Armando wasn't out to get Judy Miller.

Jane Hamsher and Digby both point out that the blogs can actually be an excellent adjunct to the press (Sean-Paul also chimes in).  Blogs can be memory.

This time, though, Foer's point is dumb, since it was the New York Times public editor taking the New York Times to task.  Or should I call him the Mainstream Public Editor Media (MPEM)?

Tags: Media (all tags)

Comments

27 Comments

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Why Does The NYT Hate The NYT?
And why does TNR sound like Fox, with a slightly different cast of characters???
by Paul Rosenberg 2006-01-02 06:24PM | 0 recs
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Re: Why Does The NYT Hate The NYT?
Like Fox, TNR became unhinged over the Clenis™, hence the sound-alike thing.

The National Fellatio Crisis destroyed more minds than dope ever did.

by Davis X Machina 2006-01-02 06:33PM | 0 recs
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They Were Unhinged Long B4 That, I'm Afraid
Their love of Reagan's war on Central America was a sure sign of hingelessness.

Communist nuns?

by Paul Rosenberg 2006-01-02 09:02PM | 0 recs
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Piss off Foer
The New York Times sucks.  They knew who Judith Miller was the whole time.  They sat on the NSA spy story because they are cowards.  They aren't lacking for sources for the stories, so what other reason do they have for not printing them.  Remember "All the news that's fit to print"?  Are we supposed to support the New York Times the way the idiots support George W. Bush?  I notice he doesn't become a better president because of it and I'm quite sure the New York Times won't become a better newspaper if we wave the flag for them.  The reason there has been such criticism of them lately is simply because they have really, really sucked.  Badly.  They are as likely to start practicing journalism as they are brain surgery.  Pigs will fly before I accept what the New York Times has done in the past 3 years.
by steve expat 2006-01-02 06:40PM | 0 recs
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Re: Piss off Foer
I understand the frustration with the NYT not releasing valuable information, but let me ask what other news organization was capable of gathering that information in the first place?  

We should be very vigilent towards the Bush adminstration putting further clamps down on the NYT.  Without an independent media, we are just listening to The Party Line.  The mainstream media makes mistakes, of course, but the arguments we make in our blogs make have to be verified facts.  I, for one, trust the facts the NYT presents, even if sometimes they don't tell every story I would like them too.  This is a clear contrast to Fox News or the Weekly Standard, where I don't trust their presentations of non-facts.  I guess also, not everyone has to deal with having the daily oklahoman as their local newspaper. The coverage of a newspaper doesn't have to have depth.

There is the old saying "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater."  If we let some differences with NYT allow Bush to divide and conquer us (by us, I mean everyone who believes in Reality, and that journalism can uncover it, if it tries) then we are in a lot of trouble.  

I hope the NYT improves, but I also hope that they survive the attacks that will be coming.  

by give em hell Huddleston 2006-01-02 08:48PM | 0 recs
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Seymour Hersh
I understand the frustration with the NYT not releasing valuable information, but let me ask what other news organization was capable of gathering that information in the first place?
It's just that there aren't enough of him.  
by Paul Rosenberg 2006-01-02 09:04PM | 0 recs
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Re: Seymour Hersh
agreed.  But seriously, check out that link to my state's newspaper.  News can get worse.  A lot worse.
by give em hell Huddleston 2006-01-02 09:16PM | 0 recs
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Re: Piss off Foer
And the Detroit Lions have the potential to be a really good football team, so I guess I shouldn't knock them and maybe they'll just get good with the same coach, general manager and owner.  Let's say in about 25 years...

P.S.  These are the frustrations of a lifelong Detroit Lions fan.  Yes, I remember when Greg Landry was a rookie.

by steve expat 2006-01-02 10:10PM | 0 recs
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Re: Piss off Foer
Hey man, as a former Oilers fan, who now roots for the Texans . .  I feel for you on the Lions front. I've dealt with many 3 win seasons with no playoffs.

But I don't think your analogy holds.  A better analogy for the NYTs is the Philadephia Eagles before this year, who, for a very long stretch keep getting close to super-bowl, but kept not making it.

A great deal of incredibly important stories are broke by the NYTs, like the one we are talking about.  It's not like they are like the Daily Oklahoma, which never has and never will break an important story.  People with awful, conservative biased newspapers are dealing with the Detriot Lions.  My paper never wins a game for me.  Complain about the timing all you want, but I'm glad to know someone provided the service of informing me Bush has a warrantless spying progam.

by give em hell Huddleston 2006-01-03 02:44PM | 0 recs
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Lost credibility
Thanks to the MSB's sweeping, reckless criticisms, the Times has lost much of the credibility and authority that it needs to mount a robust defense.

Uh, no. The Times's loss of credibility is entirely self-inflicted. Bloggers didn't make them hire Judy Miller or control the way they handled her.

by KCinDC 2006-01-02 06:45PM | 0 recs
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Gosh...
Armando even chewed me out for suggesting we send Judy Miller to Gitmo so we can water-board her secrets out of her.

Nobody can take a joke.  Sheesh.

Seriously though, if we criticize the Times and the WaPo, it can only make them better, because they have declined so terribly in recent years that it can't make things any worse.  The idea that criticism of the press is bad... well, that's just ludicrous.  It comes with the turf, guys.  The press thrives on first amendment rights.  Get used to it.

by Dumbo 2006-01-02 07:48PM | 0 recs
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We Have Nothing To Fear But Foer Himself! n/t
by Paul Rosenberg 2006-01-02 09:05PM | 0 recs
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This is about...
This is about the stupidest criticism of the blogsphere I've ever read, making sense only in the mind of journalism industry insiders, seeking to rationalize and blame their disastrous loss of credibility on some bogey man -- in this case, the "mainstream bloggers" (god, this is stupid).  Never mind that it is them (granted, not all) and their industry that have failed the rest of us... they have failed the ideals of the journalistic profession and they have failed the country (yes, I make that sweeping charge, they have failed the country by cowering to the administration and to their surrogates in the right wing media).

First of all, it's interesting that Foer's makes a concession by granting "mainstream" status to certain bloggers; I guess that's a sign that these bloggers carry certain credibility, in spite of how much the Foers of the industry belittle them.  Also, I guess is necessary to confer some "mainstream" status to these bloggers if you're now going to seek their aid.  At any rate, Foer's charge is ridiculous because the NYT certainly does not need the help of some bloggers, no matter how mainstream the bloggers are.  For crying out loud, the NYT is the paper of record, with a huge megaphone, tons of money and other resources; and, last time I checked, the NYT was, indeed, buying ink by the barrel.  So, someone needs to explain to me how some bloggers coming to the aid of the NYT is necessary.

As for our criticism of the NYT from the left, tough: jeesh, that's what the job of partisan commentary is about -- to be critical when one's positions are getting the short end of the stick and to magnify one's partisan message.  This, unfortunately, is the reality of our current media universe's system of check and balances.  

Moreover, I frankly don't think that we, the left blogsphere, want to mount some sort of organized defense of the NYT, since such an organized defense of that media giant would only reinforce the rightwing's meme that the mainstream media is Liberal -- a meme that we know to be simply full of shit, there's no liberal media in this country.  Now, we can "encourage" the NYT and others in the non-liberal mainstream media to continue their aggressive reporting on the NSA matter and other stories, but the left blogsphere does not have an obligation to defend the NYT -- they've got big pockets and, am sure, will do a fine job of looking out for their interests... let's just hope that their interests coincide with the public's interest.

by bedobe 2006-01-02 10:07PM | 0 recs
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I can't believe
Foer would criticize Atrios et al and thus undermine his credibility.  This attack should seem meaningless, but in doing so he aligns himself with the right blogosphere that has been trying to shred Atrios for years.  Atrios is an important institution and other stuff.  Well done, dude.  
by Wes 2006-01-02 10:12PM | 0 recs
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TANG, Social Security, Lack of WMD?
(Hey, Atrios: When was the last time that you exposed such a big story?)

All three stories were developed online by blogs. Bush AWOL was a carefully crafted full documented extraordinarily important story brutally smashed because a CBS producer got greedy and lazy and wanted a scoop and so bit on fabricated documents. There were and are a full range of fully authenticated documents produced under FOIA requests at http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/document.htm The MSM not only screwed this story up, they now simply refuse to report on it at all.

Social Security is another case. When was the last time you saw anyone actually tackle the numbers and do some original reporting using the actual Annual Reports? Instead they insist that Democrats will suffer because they are not offering a plan. The notion that "Social Security is a plan" is not jargon but a fully-thought out position based on years of examination of the actual numbers and their trends just flies over MSM heads without an instant of examination. This is a huge story, policy decisions of what we can and cannot afford long term revolve precisely around whether Social Security remains a net lender or not come 2017. The legacy of FDR and the New Deal is being measure and found wanting based on the New York Times and the Washington Post not doing basic reporting.

And how about WMD? The Inspectors were on the ground and not finding anything. If the US actually had solid information why were they not sharing it? Were the Op-Ed pages of the NYT just brimming over with hard questions about any of this? Hell no, but dKos sure was.

Lets see: desertion in time of War by the now Commander in Chief, retirement security, war. Kind of big stories you would think. And TNR and the rest of the MSM by and large are not getting them right yet.

Sitting on a story for a year until Bush approval sank to a point where you felt safe to finally print it is not going to win any courage in journalism awards.

by Bruce Webb 2006-01-03 12:59AM | 0 recs
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Pastor Martin Niemöller
"The Bush administration has opened a new front in its war on the press, and the press has no defenders."

And then they came for me.

Disclaimer: This post does not advocate defending the High Press and It's Elite Mediamaniacs.

by ROGNM 2006-01-03 02:36AM | 0 recs
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NY Times
Had the Times had the guts to stand up too Bu$hCo in Oct. 2004 and released this story then instead of knuckling under we might be stuck with these criminals for 3 more yrs. I have no sympathy for the Times now screw em. They released this story now knowing Bu$hCo will crush anyone who tries to stop them so the story does nothing but confirm what most of us already knew.  Which is Bu$h thinks he's KING. I got news for the Times he is partially because of them.
by Blutodog 2006-01-03 03:34AM | 0 recs
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Flatly Wrong
To the extent that the goal of the NYT and its peers is to report the news as accurately and completely as possible, constructive criticism of that reporting aids that mission. The progressive blogs' criticism of the mainstream papers has largely fit in that category. The NYT et al should be happy to have those blogs on their heels.

Of course, these anti-blog accusations are about the business of media, not elevated journalistic goals, and we should treat them with according respect.  

by TomGilpin 2006-01-03 03:59AM | 0 recs
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Re: Flatly Wrong
Yeah.  Atrios alluded to that with the 'TNR is about to fold' line.  Good point.
by Matt Stoller 2006-01-03 04:28AM | 0 recs
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No, no! Nice shot! Right on the beach . . .
Does Foer believe that left-wing bloggers simply dumped the NYT like an entire brand of cookies just because they found a hair in a bag or two?  Nay, he seems to hold the notion that left-wing bloggers have sworn off all cookies- especially the chocolate chip of MSM, the NYT- because the big cookie factories' quality control has been compromised.  You know what, Foer?  Go chant your mantra of compromise over at the DLC where love is a many membered thing.  

If you want to compromise over the rate or style of taxation, fine.  If you want to compromise over the size of agriculture's CRP program, fine.  But when it comes to the bedrock of democracy, our press, fuck fuck fuck compromise.

Does that mean I've completely given up the NYT as a valuable instrument in national political discourse, Foer?  No, and quit telling people that's what "left-wing" bloggers believe.  We need to see some evidence that quality control is back at the Times and the Post.  Not that they can't ever be trusted again.  When those insititutions atone for their recent derelictions, I'll join Keller, Downie, and you, Foer, in a huge circle jerk.  But don't give us this shit that simply because we don't like hair in our mouths that we've abandoned the Cookie.

by permit 2006-01-03 04:29AM | 0 recs
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sort of strange
I've found criticism of the New York Times (and Washington Post, and so forth) a little strange in one sense: it's also the blogosphere's main source of news.

Generally what is on the front page of the Times and Post defines what is news for the blogs -- except when blogs make a definite attempt to push a news story from other sources which in a way confirms the general sense that bloggers and blog-readers generally go to the Times and Post first.

I think there is a sense on the blogs that if you're not strident and extreme in your rhetoric, you won't be heard. So when bloggers criticize these papers, they often come off sounding hysterical -- even when they have a good point.

My guess is that this rhetoric is generally harmless. I will say I think it makes journalists more resistant to criticism. If you've just put in the leg work to report a story, it must be rather annoying and frustrating to read technorati and hear people slam you for what in many cases are disagreements with implict political slant and not factual problems.

If bloggers want to influence journalists more, they have to start  interacting with journalists in a less aggressively confrontational manner. They need to stop picking so many fights.

(There are of course a number of cases -- Judy Miller, e.g. -- in which the rhetoric is completely appropriate. And editorial/op-ed pages are fair game for this kind of thing as well.)

by sdedeo 2006-01-03 06:57AM | 0 recs
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Re: sort of strange
If bloggers want to influence journalists more, they have to start  interacting with journalists in a less aggressively confrontational manner. They need to stop picking so many fights.

It's not an either/or, Simon.  There are many ways to influence journalists.  My sense is that we need to pick MORE fights, but at the same time, create A LOT more non-confrontational forums in which to interact and refine our criticisms.

Happy new year, buddy.

by Matt Stoller 2006-01-03 07:02AM | 0 recs
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Re: sort of strange
Yes, I think you're right. "Picking fights" in the sense of creating challenges and so forth is exactly what the blogs should be doing.

I'm just coming from the experience of being a "professional" of sorts who has to both communicate with the public and also be (occasionally) responsive to it.

The default position of people in that sort of situation is to be a bit snotty and superior -- it's a common failing. So I imagine when a journalist, who sees herself as a "professional" with all sorts of duties and obligations, receives criticism from someone "outside", the immediate reaction is to try to ignore it -- all the easier when the criticism is strident and unforgiving.

Rock on.

by sdedeo 2006-01-03 08:29AM | 0 recs
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Steam Outta My Ears
When I read Foer's post.  Aside from the content, which is BS, his logic is ridiculous.  One think that concerns me is that this post, and Armando's, attempt to prove Foer wrong.  But I think you're arguing the wrong point.  He's comparing apples and oranges.
by greyhair 2006-01-03 08:08AM | 0 recs
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Re: Come on, Foer
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by posco 2006-04-26 11:20AM | 0 recs
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Re: Come on, Foer

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Re: Come on, Foer
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