Republicans & Iraq

Feingold is calling for withdrawl by the end of 2006, from Iraq. But from the sound of what Hagel is saying, that's even too long away, Hagel Says Iraq War Looking Like Vietnam: "By any standard, when you analyze 2 1/2 years in Iraq ... we're not winning... It won't be four years. We need to be out."Mike Murphy, a Republican consultant with ties to two potential presidential candidates for 2008, Senator John McCain of Arizona and Governor Mitt Romney of Massachusetts, predicted that there would be a Republican equivalent of Howard Dean, a candidate opposing the war. He also predicted that such a candidate would not succeed.On Iraq, Militias on the Rise Across Iraq paints a dire picture. More reads on the politicalness of the situation, Iraq "Tipping Point"?, for an overview of what's taken place over the past few weeks; Hillary's secret weapon ... Republican guards, good for reading Noonan and Sabato sabre-rattle against Hillary; and Newt Gingrich wants to make sure the war outlasts his lifetime:"The sheer reality of the long war -- I call it long war deliberately -- (is) we're going to be fighting the irreconcilable wing of Islam for at least 50 to 70 years, and my biggest complaint is nobody has yet to stand up and say this is going to be really hard, this is going to take a long time."I'm beginning to believe that the best way to end the war in Iraq is not so much as the Democrats uniting against it (sorta late for that), but for the Republican Party to have a division over staying or getting out of Iraq. It's likely going to take an election loss to make that happen, so, 15 months of more of the same?

Tags: General 2008 (all tags)

Comments

42 Comments

This is exactly wrong:
From the Times article:

"Clinton has the left of her party so sewn up that she can afford to move to the centre without alienating her base."

Codswallop!

She is getting further and further disconnected from the "left of the party." The progressive activists who are willing to spend money and effort on the Party are hacked off at her and are not going to come through for her during the primary season. I personally don't see how she can win the primaries.

Of course, there is no "left" in any major American party, but we'll let that pass.

by Thresholder 2005-08-21 09:56AM | 0 recs
Anyone who thinks...
...that Hillary "has the left in her pocket" needs to take a look at Carl's poll.

A helpful hint for the press: If the party's left prefer a man who is pro-war, anti-choice, and anti-gun control to Hillary, than they are NOT in her pocket.

by craverguy 2005-08-21 10:08AM | 0 recs
I think the assumption remains
that it's going to be the Reep candidate more than the Dem one that motivates liberals to turn out and vote Blue. Of course, that was true in 2004, and it may be true in 2008, but then again, it may not.
by catastrophile 2005-08-21 10:21AM | 0 recs
HRC vs. Reid
HRC is not in danger of losing the activists, she's lost them. Consider this head-to-head of HRC vs. Harry Reid.

Reid over HRC 65-35?

by Carl Nyberg 2005-08-21 11:22AM | 0 recs
Re: HRC vs. Reid
Regardless of how much I like this blog:  the "poll" you're linking to is hardly scientific.

Hillary is way ahead of her competition in the national polls.  And Reid's not running, period.

BTW, the female activist base-- which is not represented on this blog-- would never vote for anti-choice Reid.

by bellarose 2005-08-22 05:37AM | 0 recs
Re: HRC vs. Reid
Yeah, and Nader and Dean got more male support than female support too.

National polls are bullshit because they are just name recognition.

Show me the results of a national poll of people that follow politics in a big way. And instead of listing HRC in a big field put her up against one candidate.

I expect HRC would have trouble beating Brian Schweitzer if you limited the poll respondents.

Poll would only include people that

  1. could ID Schweitzer
  2. read a blog in the past week
  3. volunteered in a pol campaign or contributed in the last two cycles
by Carl Nyberg 2005-08-22 10:37AM | 0 recs
Keep it that way
I don't want her anyhow.

It's just creepy to continue passing the presidency back and forth between two families.

by jcjcjc 2005-08-21 06:09PM | 0 recs
re: division in the Republican Party
I wrote about this very same potential division growing in the Republican party a few days ago.

Here's the relevant excerpt (the split I am referring to here is primarily over the war in Iraq as in Jerome's post):


  • Many Republicans will continue to distance themselves from Bush.  He won't receive many invites to congressional districts with competitive races, and candidates will avoid presidential photo-ops and otherwise avoid appearing buddy-buddy with Bush.  At least a few candidates will make significant noise running openly against Bush's policies in Republican primaries.
  • Rather than allow this growing wing of the Republican party to have a voice in the national debate, the Conservative core of the Republican party will be unforgiving of this trend and stubbornly hold their ground.  There will be no internal compromises and no policy shifts.  The two sides will grow farther apart until signs of a clear split begin to emerge.  The current leadership will retain control over the party, but there will be some important fallout.  Moderate Republicans, already being pushed out, will be forced further into the fringes of the Republican party and beyond.  Many will find themselves voting for moderate alternatives in Republican primaries and Democratic candidates in general elections.
by up2date 2005-08-21 11:17AM | 0 recs
third party candidacy
If there's a Republican Dean-style anti-war candidate that doesn't get the nomination, it seems likely there will be a major third-party candidacy in 2008.

Of course the Dems could nominate an anti-war candidate, but it seems like the establishment really doesn't want to do this.

by Carl Nyberg 2005-08-21 11:18AM | 0 recs
Re: third party candidacy
It could be like George Wallace in 1968.  He left the Democratic party in a split over the Civil Rights Act, and he took a lot of votes with him.  Wallace voters in 1968 voted virtually as a bloc for Nixon in 72, and those votes never came back.  Nixon and Reagan after him knew exactly how to appeal to those voters and that transition helped solidify the Republican coalition.

If we can grab the Republican defectors, it might mark a long-term shift in voting patterns.

by up2date 2005-08-21 11:26AM | 0 recs
Re: third party candidacy
Will the Israel lobby allow the Dems to oppose the Iraq War?
by Carl Nyberg 2005-08-21 11:41AM | 0 recs
How to grab moderates
  1. close the border

  2. defend the middle class economically

  3. maintain the general form of american society

It's odd that this hasn't been done already.
by Paul Goodman 2005-08-21 03:51PM | 0 recs
Money Quote
From the story about Hillary's Republican Guard:

Nobody knows this better than Clinton herself, according to McCurry. Even if teaming up with the right does not win her the White House, it could help her to maintain a high profile in the Senate for years to come. "I would not be surprised if she were to decide that this was the best contribution she could make to her country," he said.

Sounds like a terrific plan to me.

by Gary Boatwright 2005-08-21 12:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Money Quote
She could be DiFi from New York State -- bookending the country. Sad thought, but likely.
by janinsanfran 2005-08-22 10:22AM | 0 recs
all cylinders
Jerome, you're hitting on all cylinders.  However the post centers on electoral / campaign politics and doesn't highlight the Karl Rove connection, which is a big mistake.

Karl Rove circulated a map to the oil companies in 2000. The texans drew up a map dividing the persian Gulf. This was documented by a book, later classified in a rush as CBS broke the story and flashed the map, then quickly declassified even though it had already been classified. Again, this action was taken by the senior Advisor Karl Rove - to try to cover his tracks.

So if you think the party can only change after an electoral loss, what is implicit is important: you are saying If Karl Rove loses. He drives these campaigns, he even got behind smearing Hackett. Swift boating is now a verb.

What I would like to see, if you could, is a connect the dots here so that instead of guessing about the election results, instead questioning the basis of the Republican platform that brought so many african Americans into the party at the turn of the century - standing for freedom, effecient government, integration - not a bloated 130 billion dollar a year boondoggle. Rove seems to drive big government into the party, while taking every measure to quash debate on the matter. Republicans working their way back to a base is crucial because the activist base of the party is aligned squarely on issues of rights that most americans, republican or democrat, adopt in some measure - ex. emminent domain.

Bringing out the parts of that platform that you agree with is a patriotic act and shuts down rove. Treating it all like a game show where the biggest donors win and america sits by like meek participants while the special interests battle it out - seems to me this is as much playing Roves game as you can get.

Question the rules. The rules before used to say niggers go to the back of the bus. We won then,
we'll win again.

Good post otherwise.

by turnerbroadcasting 2005-08-21 12:29PM | 0 recs
Need Men of Character---Dem or Rep
We need Men of Character and Courage who would stand up for what is right whether they be Republicans or Democrats.

Pres Bush would listen more to Republicans so I hope more Republicans have the courage to demand of George Bush to do the right thing.

I think the first step to solving Iraq is get rid of present advisors and Rumsfeld and get new perspective and faces.  The only way he would do that is for his Republican constituency to demand it.

I am so  disappointed with Gen Powell, Sen McCain, etc.

by jasmine 2005-08-21 01:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Need Men of Character---Dem or Rep
not as much as powell is disappoint w/himself

now that traitors have encircled our president the GOP is pierced to its very heart. the gop needs a slick presence in order to do its work, the stain of treachery is not erased easily. people who are brushing off acts of treason against our country  - those people are like the jews who refuse to destroy the malachites' possessions, covet them and watch them rise like hitler's hand me downs - they are the pawns of an evil game and they know it .  victory only comes to those who can focus and deliver. alot is at stake. they arein control. may god bless america

by turnerbroadcasting 2005-08-21 03:20PM | 0 recs
That is music to my ears
That's absolutely right. American attrits its inheretence with every passing year. We need some one who is forward looking and driven to ensure that America will be prosperous well into the 21st century (ie not Bush).
by Paul Goodman 2005-08-21 03:53PM | 0 recs
A Bring The Troops Home Democrat Will Win
Murphy knows the Republican party:
Mike Murphy, a Republican consultant with ties to two potential presidential candidates for 2008, Senator John McCain of Arizona and Governor Mitt Romney of Massachusetts, predicted that there would be a Republican equivalent of Howard Dean, a candidate opposing the war. He also predicted that such a candidate would not succeed.

Even that prediction could change in the next two years. Hagel may be better at reading the tea leaves than Murphy. Hagel has been back to his district. Has Murphy been hanging around D.C. and Crawford or getting out into the trenches?

A "bring the troops home" Democrat will win the Democratic primary and the Presidency. Anybody who thinks a bigger warmonger than Hagel can win a Democratic primary is nuts.

Hagel could run in the Democratic presidential primary and beat any Democrat who doesn't have a short term exit plan for Iraq.

by Gary Boatwright 2005-08-21 01:54PM | 0 recs
Re: A Bring The Troops Home Democrat Will Win
What if we bring the troops home based on Democratic demands, and it turns out that "We are NOT safer now" is more than a slogan?  What if it turns out that we are RIGHT that where Iraq wasn't a terrorist state, it is now?  What if it turns out that Bush's mistake DOES cause Iraq to join with Iran?  

What if the millions of people pissed off that we invaded, killed their families, destroyed their cities and tortured people decide to do something about it?  Is that really what we want to have created and then leave?  A war doesn't stop because one side says "time out."  A war stops when there is a settlement between the warring parties.  What if we are attacked by the elements we have created in Iraq and then leave behind?    Will any Democrats ever get (or deserve) another vote?

We HAVE TO bring security to the country, even if it means paying the UN to bring in a million peacekeepers.  (Obviously I am not advocating continuing the situation we have in place now.  Bush should betried for the crime of aggressive war.)

by davej 2005-08-21 07:58PM | 0 recs
Re: A Bring The Troops Home Democrat Will Win
What I am saying is that we all want to END the war.  "Withdrawal" - just leaving - doesn't necessarily end the war.  That's flawed logic.  
by davej 2005-08-21 09:41PM | 0 recs
Hagel vs. Biden
In a hypothetical presidential election, Hagel vs. Biden, who am I supposed to vote for? Hagel says that Iraq is another Vietnam and we should pull the troops, Biden says send in more troops.  Iraq is the number one issue for me.  Tell me why I shouldn't vote for Hagel...
by steve expat 2005-08-21 03:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Hagel vs. Biden
biden's got a better tan, man.
by turnerbroadcasting 2005-08-21 03:20PM | 0 recs
There is no reason
Hagel is a good man.
by Paul Goodman 2005-08-21 03:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Hagel vs. Biden
Hagel kicks Biden's butt with at least 20% of Democrats voting for Hagel.

Of course Biden could get 20% of a Republican switchover vote. That would be one hell of an interesting election.

by Gary Boatwright 2005-08-21 06:30PM | 0 recs
Hagel ecoes Dean
Hat tip to Dave Johnson for the reminder Seeing the Forest.

Howard Dean demands an exit strategy:

"First thing we need to do is have a plan for leaving. And, the second thing we need to do is to make sure that to the best of our ability we can influence the writing of the constitution. It looks like today, and this could change - as of today, it looks like women will be worse off in Iraq than they were when Saddam Hussein was president of Iraq. That's a pretty sad commentary on this administration's ability to do anything right. And, if it turns out that this constitution really does take away the rights that women have enjoyed in Iraq before, then I can't imagine why we're there.

The problem is now that there's ample evidence to say that they didn't understand what they were getting into and they still don't know what we're doing there. They changed their goals. The troops are still not properly equipped. The constitution looks like it may take away freedom from the Iraq people, at least half of them, instead of added to them. What we need is a plan from the president of the United States." [DNC Chairman Howard Dean, Face the Nation, CBS, 8/14/05]

by Gary Boatwright 2005-08-21 06:40PM | 0 recs
Re: Hagel ecoes Dean
haha, tagteam:
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
August 21, 2005

CONTACT: Josh Earnest, 202-746-5795

Dean Echoes Hagel, Says Troops Deserve Clear Plan for Success in Iraq

WASHINGTON - Today, DNC Chairman Howard Dean, echoing the concerns of Democrats and Republicans across the country, called on President Bush to lay out - and stick to - a clear military plan for success in Iraq that includes heeding the advice of military commanders. During his appearance on ABC's "This Week", Republican Senator Chuck Hagel warned President Bush against ignoring the advice of his military officials when putting together a military plan for Iraq, citing the Bush administration's dismissal of the prediction by former Army Chief of Staff General Eric Shinseki, that several hundred thousand American troops would be needed to stabilize Iraq after the American invasion.

Yesterday, Army General Peter Schoomaker signaled that the Army had already begun logistical planning to keep 100,000 American troops in Iraq.

"This President has failed our nation and our troops by ignoring the advice of high-ranking military officials and failing to commit to a clear plan for success in Iraq," said DNC Chairman Howard Dean. "The President can't make up for the mistakes he made in taking the US to war in Iraq, but he can do the right thing going forward. When President Bush speaks later this week to members of the military and veterans, he should lay out a clear plan for future success in Iraq based on the informed advice of his military command. It's long-past time for the President to show some leadership, for the sake of our troops, their families and America's security."

by Jerome Armstrong 2005-08-21 06:44PM | 0 recs
Stay Out of It
"I'm beginning to believe that the best way to end the war in Iraq is not so much as the Democrats uniting against it (sorta late for that), but for the Republican Party to have a division over staying or getting out of Iraq."

Bingo.  The Dem leadership should stay out of it for now.  Just like the Social Security debate, nothing good comes to them from getting in the way of a train wreck in progress.

They simply have no input that will be acted on anyway.  Demanding "withdrawal" only sets them (and us) up for the blame.

by davej 2005-08-21 07:51PM | 0 recs
Pulling out of Iraq
All you liberals think that the US should get out of Iraq right now. You think that the war has been a failure. Do you realize that this war has toppled a one of the most dangerous, bloodthirsty men in the world. Consequently the government has to be completely rebuilt. It takes time to create a government. If the troops are pulled out from an unstable country, no one knows what will happen. While staying in Iraq the troops will help secure Iraq. The attacks on American soldiers in Iraq has decreased significantly in the last 6 months. I am sick of hearing liberals saying "pull the troops out now" and "this war was a failure." Do you realize that this is a war and sacrafices have to be made and soldiers will die? The US has lost 1800 soldiers though we have rebuilt a nation of 22 million people. We have changed the lives of millions of children and created greater oppurtunity for women in Iraq. It needs to be realized that we are discussing a nation and if we remove our troops now we are jeapordising the fate of a nation.
by Werdman87 2005-08-21 08:43PM | 0 recs
Re: Pulling out of Iraq
"All you liberals think that the US should get out of Iraq right now."

Liberal like Chuck Hagel? Liberal like Pat Buchanan? Liberal like Mike Peroutka?

by craverguy 2005-08-22 07:33AM | 0 recs
Re: Pulling out of Iraq
Chuck Hagel goes to the extreme of saying the we are losing this war. He says that the evidence clearly shows that. What the evidence is he talking about. That we lost 1800 soldiers in a WAR. That is not losing. The fact that the Iraq is very close to signing a new constitution is losing. The steep decline of attacks on soldiers is losing. Yes, we are surely losing this war. How can you take this man seriously after comparing this war to Vietnam. Yes he performed valiantly in Vietnam, but what evidence is he looking at to make these accusations.
by Werdman87 2005-08-22 09:22AM | 0 recs
Re: Pulling out of Iraq
"Steep decline in attacks?" Fourteen men died in a single attack this month! Sixty-nine have died in the past three weeks!

And for what? So that the Iraqis could trade the terror of Saddam for the terror of insurgent attacks? So that Saddam's tyranny could be replaced by Iranian-style tyranny? So that Bush's buddies could get their hands on some of that sweet, sweet crude?

Eighteen hundred lives is too high a price to pay! Hell, one life is too high a price to pay! We lost this war the moment we decided to attack another country for no particular reason and with no particular goal.

by craverguy 2005-08-22 09:42AM | 0 recs
Re: Pulling out of Iraq
Iranian style tyranny. You know nothing of Iranian tyranny. I am Iranian. My father was born in Iran. There is very little tyranny. You have no idea what you are talking about. The government is not cruel or harsh. This is part of the Zionist propaganda machine. You have not lived in Iran. You know nothing of the lifestyle in Iran other than what you have seen through the media.
by Werdman87 2005-08-22 05:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Pulling out of Iraq
You'll have to excuse me if I don't take your word about that at face value, what with you being an anonymous poster who only felt it necessary to mention his Iranian heritage after I brought Iran up.

You'll also have to excuse me if I laught at your pitiful, bigoted babble about "Zionists."

by craverguy 2005-08-22 06:34PM | 0 recs
Re: Pulling out of Iraq
I brought Iran up because you brought it up in one of your extremely weak arguments where you had absolutely no clue what you were talking about. Do you not think it is necessary for me to tell you that I know a lot more about Iranian politics than you do? My "pitiful bigoted babble." You are one of the most immature people that spoken to. You would be a fool to not recognize that our media is biased. If you compare our networks to BBC there is a difference on views of the middle east.
by Werdman87 2005-08-22 08:52PM | 0 recs
Re: Pulling out of Iraq
First of all, you would do well to engage in proper grammar and spelling while accusing others of "immaturity." It makes you seem more credible.

Second of all, you would do well not to insult others while impugning their maturity, especially when you can't even be bothered to come up with a better insult than "you have no idea what you are talking about."

Third of all, our media is biased, in favor of right-wingers like Rupert Murdoch who own most of the media-industrial complex.

Finally, the idea that the world is run by a "Zionist Occupation Government," or whatever it's called nowadays, is ludicrous babble from racist, anti-Semitic tracts written in the 19th century. Grow up. Your problems are caused by your own ineptness in picking a governing party, not by evil Jews.

by craverguy 2005-08-22 10:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Pulling out of Iraq
I never siad a word about the "Zionist occupation government." You are bringing up a totally different issue. The only thing I was talking about was the media bias. What problems are you talking about? There is no place for stereotypical comments like that. You do not even know me. I am in no way anti semetic nor racist. Come on, you are telling me to grow up. You want to talk about grammar, laughed is spelled laughed, not laught.
by Werdman87 2005-08-23 07:20AM | 0 recs
Re: Pulling out of Iraq
Sir, before you reply to something, look at the statistics. They do not lie. In the past 7 months the average amount of deaths per month have decreased compaired to 2004. "With no particular goal." Sir come on, you need a better argument. I guess you think that toppling the bathist regime was not a goal. To decrease the funding of terrorists was not a goal. Giving women and children of Iraq more oppurtunity was not a goal of the US. Dont say  that oil was the goal. The new constitution clearly states that the oil is the property of the people of Iraq.
by Werdman87 2005-08-22 06:12PM | 0 recs
Re: Pulling out of Iraq
"To decrease the funding of terrorists was not a goal."

Since there was no funding of terrorists going on in the first place, that's not much of an argument.

"Giving women and children of Iraq more oppurtunity was not a goal of the US."

Under the new constitution, women will not have the right to vote. Great opportunity, hmm?

"The new constitution clearly states that the oil is the property of the people of Iraq."

And it will be sold to Halliburton at cut-rate prices...or else.

by craverguy 2005-08-22 06:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Pulling out of Iraq
I would like like to know your extremely reliable source of information. This source must be so good that its stories are different than the mainstream press. I do not know if you realize that even if the oil is sold at cut rate prices the revenue that will be created for Iraqis will still be hundreds of billions of dollars. The people will receive more money than they ever did under Saddam Hossein. Consequently, the oil prices will decrease, and the US economy will increase due to the decrease in the price of gas. You have to look at the big picture and not only the negative sides of things.
by Werdman87 2005-08-22 09:35PM | 0 recs
Re: Pulling out of Iraq
My source of information would be this blog, where the blocking of women's voting rights was reported just this morning.

If you have any doubts as to who will be enjoying all of the cut-rate prices on oil (the profits from which will go to Ahmed Chalabi and his oligarchs, not the Iraqi people), look no further than the company that was awarded billions of dollars in no-bid contracts to reconstruct Iraq and has already begun it's war-profiteering operation: Halliburton.

by craverguy 2005-08-22 10:04PM | 0 recs
Newt represented Lockheed Martin
his district took in more federal tax dollars than any other in America because of it. He is military industrial complex so it is not surprise he says stuff like that.  He needs this to be a long protracted conflict.  He is neocon all the way.
by Dameocrat 2005-08-22 02:03AM | 0 recs

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