Times are changing

No one would accuse the CSM website of being a liberal hangout, but it's pretty clear given this poll, what the sense is:

It's on C-Span


What we are seeing here is a fundamental re-alignment of the political parties. The Republicans are re-branding themselves as the governing party that will yield its power to intervene at whatever level it deems, in order to satisy the theo-con agenda of social control. Democrats are speaking of keeping the government out of peoples lives.

Republicans say they are "taking on one of the great moral questions of the day", but what they really are doing is taking on water, and throwing overboard the libertarian wing of their party. Tonight, we are watching the demise of the Republican coalition come into view.

Update: It's over, passed 203-58. Of the Democrats, 46 voted for, 56 voted against. All but 5 Republicans voted for, those were: Ginny Brown-Waite (Fla.), Mike Castle (Del.), Charles Dent (Penn.), David Reichert (Wash.), and Chris Shays (Conn.) Without a doubt, they will face the wrath of the theo-con wingnuts that celebrate the case of Terri, but they missed Sun (that's Bush's law). It's also worth noting that about 80 Republicans didn't show up to vote. Ginny Brown-Waite is a weather-vane for the Sr. Citizen vote. I'd gander that those are the voters most upset by this, just like Social Security, and lets remember that those are the most likely voters in '06.

Update II: And CNN reports that Bush signed the law at 1:11 AM. Again, for 'what's this about' and 'what's next' read Andrew Cohen, Trial By Legislation.

Tags: Misc (all tags)



You don't have to watch it on TV to see...
Ask any moderate conservative friend you know and they will tell you they are horrified by what some in their party will resort to... it is the equivalent for them of the good honest Dems watching the 1968 Chicago Convention... with Dick Daley's gang outside the hall beating protesters with night sticks.

It will take a lot of time and not a just a few words for the GOP to explain away these images. People realize it could have happened to them 'but for the grace of God'.

by dryfly 2005-03-20 06:57PM | 0 recs
But, they still vote this way
I know.  The guns and taxes and small government crowd bitch about the GOP, but they keep voting GOP.

A number of my GOP friends are sitting here right now bitch about oil prices, and I keep asking them if they really thought two oilmen were going to lower the cost of oil.

The GOP has modded their handbasket to ensure the fastest possible ride to hell.

It's something to watch.  The question now is, will these people get the point in 2006 or 2008?  Will they realize that they have a choice.

For however corrupt and bad Dems may have ran things, we never engaged in such open contempt for the federalized republican (small r) form of democracy.

by jcjcjc 2005-03-21 05:08AM | 0 recs
Re: But, they still vote this way
"It's something to watch.  The question now is, will these people get the point in 2006 or 2008?  Will they realize that they have a choice."

Excellent question and excellent point.  I think the other question needing to be address is whether our party leadership (and yes I have the confidence they will) will hammer the GOP about these issues in an attempt to get some of these people.  Even if they don't vote Democrat, as long as they don't vote GOP, it is a huge victory...  My hope is the hardcore libertarian wing of the GOP defects and votes libertarian while the moderates vote Democratic.  We need to make sure these talking points are repeated ad nauseam starting this year through next.  Focus on a few pillars instead of a bunch of things and hit it hard...  Maybe - Fiscal Responsibility, Smaller Government/Less interference on things, Ensuring the long term viability of Entitlement programs, Providing all Americans with Affordable Healthcare and Providing a Smarter defense of the country.  

5 issues...hit it ad nauseaum.  If asked about abortion, gay marriage etc, answer the party stance and get back to the 5 main points.  Concentrate the message and it will get through.  Bush and the GOP are handing us ammunition to take them down with.  We just need to load the gun and fire.  

by yitbos96bb 2005-03-21 05:29AM | 0 recs
"Clinton's legacy of small government"
Right there is the phrase we need to use.

We need to run Clinton's "the era of big government is over" speech a million times in commercials littered with Bush's financial irresponsiblity.

We need to remind Americans that when we ran this ship, it sailed in smooth waters.  When they run this ship, they ram it into reefs in the middle of storms and 30-foot waves.

The fact is that Clinton left us one gigantic gift: the mantle of small government.

No GOPer has the right to question us, because our guy did it, and their guys just talked about doing it.

by jcjcjc 2005-03-21 05:37AM | 0 recs
So Is It North Vs South Again?
Tonight, we are watching the demise of the Republican coalition come into view.

It can't happen fast enough for me.
by ItsBeenCalmingForSomeTime 2005-03-20 06:58PM | 0 recs
Yes - the beginning of the end
The Schiavo case has Karl Rove written all over it. Bush's Brain (insert Karl). You have to be wary and careful about Karl. I respect his intellect but I do not think his ends justify the means. =I know this is off topic, but we as Democrats have to watch carefully who Karl Rove decides to back in 2008 and plan accordingly. Don't forget about 2006.=
by neolib 2005-03-20 07:00PM | 0 recs
Re: Yes - the beginning of the end
My personal feeling is we need to smash Bill Frist's candidacy in any way possible as most of us assume he will be the nominee.  Guiliani is a threat, but he has too much baggage...we can take him out easily.  McCain is a challenge but many think he won't win the primaries.  As an Indie, he either wins or plays spoiler...either way our chances increase in that situation.  If Rove backs him, we may be in trouble, but I see Rove doing Frist.  
by yitbos96bb 2005-03-21 05:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Yes - the beginning of the end
Indeed. Have you seen "Bush's Brain"? Karl is very focused and masterful at the entire process. Planning for 06 and 08 is critical. Brb...lunchtime.
by neolib 2005-03-21 06:46AM | 0 recs
We've learned, they haven't
Let's just promise we won't abuse our power once we get it back.
by jcjcjc 2005-03-20 07:08PM | 0 recs
Re: We've learned, they haven't
Punishing these people won't be abuse of power - it will be 'justice'.
by dryfly 2005-03-21 05:37AM | 0 recs
About time!
I hope this is the straw that finally breaks the camel's back. Their unanimity about intruding into the private medical decisions of American families may do the trick.

Chris Shays is the only GOPer I've seen that opposed this phony bill. There is no way that this disgusting intrusion into a medical decision is going to play well with the general public. First Social Security and now this. It looks like Rove's political wind vane has started twisting in the wind.

by Gary Boatwright 2005-03-20 07:08PM | 0 recs
Don't get overconfident
I hope this is the straw that breaks the GOP elephant, but if Bush's war, torture, scandal after scandal didn't do it, I don't hold out hope for this  to do it either.

I hope I'm wrong. This is a circus and I'm embarassed that it's my government doing it.

10 courts.
19 judges.
Every doctor associated with the case, including court apointed doctors.

They're all wrong?

How can the Republicans sustain this level of arogance?

by michael in chicago 2005-03-20 07:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Don't get overconfident
"How can the Republicans sustain this level of arogance?"

I still don't understand how they could buy their own BS re Florida 2000. After that, it was clear there was no limit. So this is not unexpected, only long overdue. Let's hope this really is it.

by Paul Rosenberg 2005-03-20 08:13PM | 0 recs
Re: Don't get overconfident
"How can the Republicans sustain this level of arogance?"

Because they can.

by dryfly 2005-03-21 05:38AM | 0 recs
Re: Don't get overconfident
I think the reason the above hasn't worked (war, torture etc) is people were still afraid of 9/11.  The farther away it gets, the less the fear plays upon the minds of people, much like Character issues usually carry more weight during good economic times than bad.  

That being said, if the polls go against the GOP, don't be surprised to see a terror alert.  

by yitbos96bb 2005-03-21 05:42AM | 0 recs
For the record...
"Tonight, we are watching the demise of the Republican coalition come into view...."

Jerome's been saying that for the past 3 congressional elections... yet I still come here because one day he may be correct.

by NCDem 2005-03-20 07:40PM | 0 recs
Re: For the record...
...just have better sight than the rest, now the laggards are seeing...
by Jerome Armstrong 2005-03-20 07:49PM | 0 recs
Making it happen
The tax cuts is the only thing keeping the more moderate and libertarian elements in the Repug coalition.  

How do we convince them that with the deficits Bush is running, when we have to pay back all the money we're stealing from the SS trust fund and when interest on the national debt becomes the single largest item in the buget, their taxes will go WAY UP no matter who is in power?  The only way to stop this (as well as the percipitous slide of the dollar) is to get serious about getting the budget in balance now, which only Democrats will do.

It's like the guy in the FRAM auto filters commercial used to say:  you can pay me now (cut to a new filter), or you can pay me later (cut to smoking, run down car)....

Now how do we make "moderate" and libertarian Republicans see this?

by Jim in Chicago 2005-03-20 11:09PM | 0 recs
Re: Making it happen
Good question.  I agree the moderates stay due to the tax cut... I think the libertarians are more tricky because Social Security is a big issue to them and their stance is the opposite of ours.  However, if we can even get them to vote libertarian instead and steal most of the moderates, then that will help out a lot.  
by yitbos96bb 2005-03-21 05:47AM | 0 recs
Link to GOP Schaivo Talking Points?
I keep reading this quote in various articles:

ABC News obtained talking points circulated among Senate Republicans explaining why they should vote to intervene in the Schiavo case. Among them, that it is an important moral issue and the "pro-life base will be excited," and that it is a "great political issue -- this is a tough issue for Democrats."

Has anyone found a link to the full text of the GOP Schiavo Talking Points?  I think this would be very interesting reading.

by TexasLefty 2005-03-20 08:33PM | 0 recs
Re: Link to GOP Schaivo Talking Points?
I don't know but Frist was pissed about this...at least on TV.  He denounced the memo... I am curious who put it out and what will happen to them.  
by yitbos96bb 2005-03-21 05:49AM | 0 recs
46 Democrats!
Why the hell did 46 democrats vote for it?  Are they insane?  This seriously undermines are ability to portray the republicans as the nuts!  WTF were they thinking?!
by Ryan 2005-03-20 08:50PM | 0 recs
Re: 46 Democrats!
They're thinking that they're in red states and better tow the line because the religious right plays politics better than liberals.
by Drummond 2005-03-20 09:04PM | 0 recs
Re: 46 Democrats!
Maybe they feel it's right?
by falcon4e 2005-03-21 05:23AM | 0 recs
Re: 46 Democrats!
I think Drummond is right.  They knew it was gonna pass, so why piss off your constituents if your vote is meaningless.   I don't necessarily agree but I think that is the line of thinking for most.
by yitbos96bb 2005-03-21 05:50AM | 0 recs
Re: 46 Democrats!
They could have abstained.
by KTinOhio 2005-03-21 05:55AM | 0 recs
Re: 46 Democrats!
True, but to many that is as bad as a no.  I don't agree with what they did, I just am offering a reason why they did it.  Think like a politician not an activist (remove your soul and integrity and put them in a box somewhere.) for a moment.  
by yitbos96bb 2005-03-21 06:32AM | 0 recs
Re: 46 Democrats!
Duck and Cover?
by bellarose 2005-03-21 06:46AM | 0 recs
Re: 46 Democrats!
Drop back and punt.

After getting suckered on Partial Birth Abortion, the Democrats are wise to do this.

The bill sends it back to the court system and the judiciary will do their job.

by wayward 2005-03-21 03:41PM | 0 recs
My congressmen voted for it...
and he's a Democrat * cries *
by ben114 2005-03-20 08:53PM | 0 recs
mine voted for it, too
i'm embarrassed right now.  and i'm outraged.  michael schiavo must be in a living hell right now.  for fifteen years he's watched the woman he loved - the woman to whom he pledged his life - deteriorate.  he's gone through so much, and terry's condition is permanent.  just let her go in peace.  i can't believe that politicians have made her into a political football (oh wait, yes i can)... and michael, too... his life is a political football being punted back and forth between the rapture-rightists... it's sickening.

sometimes dead is better.  in this case, it certainly is.  let terri - bless her soul - meet her maker.  let michael move on with his life...  this is just a travesty.

by annatopia 2005-03-20 08:58PM | 0 recs
Re: mine voted for it, too
Not that I support what congress did, but Michael has moved on at least partly.  The guy has a new girlfriend and is living with her I believe.  The politicians are clearly pandering.  That leads us to the parents.  I empathize with them.  But they are being a little selfish...although in the same situation, I might feel the same way...I just don't know.  But even though they claim to be doing it for their daughter, they are instead doing it for themselves...hanging onto that last thread of hope.  From a religious standpoint, I would think they would want her to be in heaven rather than trapped like a vegetable...but that is just my opinion.  

I thought the spouse had the right to make these decisions.  Am I incorrect or have the courts and the schindlers ursurped Michaels rights?  I think the law needs to be changed somehow in light of this case for the future.  If no living will exists, either they are kept alive regardless or it is put in the hands of the spouse or next of kin.  Something like this would keep fights like these from happening.  

by yitbos96bb 2005-03-21 05:57AM | 0 recs
Re: mine voted for it, too
"I thought the spouse had the right to make these decisions.  Am I incorrect or have the courts and the schindlers ursurped Michaels rights?  I think the law needs to be changed somehow in light of this case for the future.  If no living will exists, either they are kept alive regardless or it is put in the hands of the spouse or next of kin.  Something like this would keep fights like these from happening."

Your first sentence is correct.  It was entirely Michael's choice.  Evidence is that he did not take it lightly.  The law in Florida was apparently perfectly clear.  It is only the interference of the Florida and now U.S. legislatures that have prolonged this case well beyond normal.

The problem with the law is that sometimes you don't like the outcome...

by PghArch 2005-03-21 08:31AM | 0 recs
Re: mine voted for it, too
Ok, that is what I thought.  

The GOP...never letting a little thing like logic or sense fuck up their argument.  

by yitbos96bb 2005-03-21 08:54AM | 0 recs
Re: mine voted for it, too
They don't have to think, they just believe.
by wayward 2005-03-21 03:41PM | 0 recs
GOP identity disorder.
They aren't liberals and they aren't conservatives. So what in the hell are they?

Theocon is a good term. I like that better than neocon since the latter is a Wilsonian liberal idealist masquerading as cons, in my view. Theocons are modern-day inquisitioners. Man I hate those fuckers.

by Vote Hillary 2008 2005-03-20 09:42PM | 0 recs
Re: GOP identity disorder.
i hate 'em, too, and i'm so sad about that fact.  normally i'm an empathetic, generous human being.  but when i observe what the theocons are doing to our country, i hate them.  i really really hate them, deep down in my bones.
by annatopia 2005-03-20 10:32PM | 0 recs
Don't feel sad.
These people don't practice what they preach. They are hypocrites and hateful people who use religion as a tool to forward their own agenda. Reminds me of feudal Europe when kings used the church to control the will of the peasant masses.

You have every right to be outraged.

by Vote Hillary 2008 2005-03-20 10:49PM | 0 recs
Re: Don't feel sad.
Do all Theocons not practice what they preach or is just those in power?  I have met some who I would say practice what they preach however, none of them are in politics etc..just normal guys.
by yitbos96bb 2005-03-21 06:00AM | 0 recs
Worthless Polls
Polls like that are worthless, irrespective of where they come from.  And it isn't just because it is not  a random sample.

The Republicans do not care whether the American people support what they do, the only care about holding power and doing what they want.

Don't you remember the polls before and during the impeachment of Clinton?  Americans were against starting the process and against impeaching and trying the president.  But that did not slow down the Republicans or affect them in any way.  Recall that Larry Flynt was the only "journalist" with the guts to call them out for their hypocrisy.

The Democrats?  Some of them are trying, especially Reid, but they haven't got a thing yet.  If it weren't for Republican misgivings, social security would have already been gutted by a partisan vote.

The Democrats are still a disorganized mob of losers.  The party still has too many prominent members who are as unprincipled and as tied to the corporate ruling class as the Republicans, who have no interst other than self-promotion, and who are oblivious to what life is like for almost all Americans.

We really do need a revolution of sorts, one in which we are going to lose before we win.

by James Earl 2005-03-20 09:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Worthless Polls
excellent comment, and thanks for the reminder about the clinton years.  people sometimes act like that never happened - the public didn't want it, and we spent more $ on investigating bill's sexual proclivities than we did on the 911 commission.

what does that say about the GOP's priorities?

by annatopia 2005-03-20 10:36PM | 0 recs
Re: Worthless Polls
they are in terms of numbers, but they match my conversations with moderate Rs who are horrified.

Doesn't matter what Chris Matthews feels about it. No one watches him.

by DemFromCT 2005-03-21 03:46AM | 0 recs
I would say what we're witnessing is...
....a testiment to the power of the only organized and disciplined national political force in America, the Christian Right, and how beholden the GOP is to this political god.

My oh my will the GOP pay for this one.

And what's clear is that this wasn't thought through. They didn't have a Ramifications Strategy Brunch

There's a lot of Americans out there who will think this is revolting politics. If I'm running in 2006, under whatever party banner, I put in my top five bullet points: "I denounced the shallow actions taken in Washington around the life of Terri Schiavo."

(oh, and the Christian Science Monitor is a fairly liberal news outlet)


by janfrel 2005-03-20 10:50PM | 0 recs
Re: I would say what we're witnessing is...
but the WSJ is not. 80-20

Was Congress right to intervene in the dispute over removing a Florida woman's feeding tube?

Yes 1823 votes (20%)       
No 7233 votes (80%)   

by DemFromCT 2005-03-21 03:45AM | 0 recs
Re: I would say what we're witnessing is...
WSJ people are EXACTLY the kind of people who have living wills and have designated powers of attorney... even if they buy the econ side of the GOP... you don't think they are scared shitless by this?

They are and they should be... we sould all be. You will have to make sure to bring your own cyanide with you everytime you see a doctor for Christ sake... God forbid they might admit you to the hospital without it...

by dryfly 2005-03-21 05:43AM | 0 recs
Re: I would say what we're witnessing is...
If we can figure out a way to keep taxes steady, balance the budget and keep entitlement programs without raising taxes, we get these people and control of the country.  Our biggest mistake is proposing a tax increase to pay for most entitlement programs...WITH THE EXCEPTION of social security...Most people will support it if we just remove the cap and keep the percentage the same.  
by yitbos96bb 2005-03-21 06:05AM | 0 recs
Re: I would say what we're witnessing is...
Agree - fiscal management. Do the right things, then do them right.

This is why the neo-cons & theo-cons IN POWER NOW let a topic like Schiavo come up in public then let it rush through and up for a vote... They are losing on the 'econ issues'... even when they get them passed like bankrutcy... they come out smelling like a turd...

Rove let this move forward because he needed the 'time out'...

...watch what happens after this settles down again. My guess is they will change the 'econ' strategy too...

by dryfly 2005-03-21 08:34AM | 0 recs
Re: I would say what we're witnessing is...
So it is a Moral Terrorist Alert...

Would anyone be surprised if we got a Moral Alert meter?  Terri is going to be unplugged...it is a red day.  Democrats are kicking our ass on our old issues...It is a red day...

by yitbos96bb 2005-03-21 08:51AM | 0 recs
I don't think the Rethugs care what people think..
They couldn't care less that 85% of people don't believe that the government should interfere. All that matters to them is that 95% of their base does think so. Honestly, if 95% of their bases wanted them to sequester Democrats in a cave under the Potomac, they would do it. This is really the secret to the current Rethugs. Nothing gets done without the base and everything gets done for them.
by rpwmed 2005-03-20 11:03PM | 0 recs
Re: I don't think the Rethugs
That's the thing, I don't think 95% of their base does.  No way the Christian right makes up that much of the GOP.  I would say 65% or 70 tops.  They have bought into their own hype about the Theocon mandidate, forgetting Bush got many votes based on Defense and fears of another 9/11.  That card has maybe 1 more use, but I doubt it.  Gives us a perfect chance to grab the defense plank.  We need to propose a smarter defense to battle the terrorists.  Not underfund and underman the invading forces.  Basically repackage the Powell doctrine and add more about taking better care of the troops by moving money from creating certain types of weapons.  Pick a few missle types instead of many types, same with planes etc.  We need multi-use technology, not specialized technology.  Fight a smarter war, accomplish objectives and keep many of our boys from dying.  
by yitbos96bb 2005-03-21 06:11AM | 0 recs
Re: I don't think the Rethugs
Yes, maybe they don't make up 95% of the Rethug base. However, they probably DO make up 95% of the enthusiastic GOP voters who go out to vote. I'm sure that these people are more motivated than the people who voted because of defense issues. I really don't believe that defense of our country is the issue that Democrats lose on. They lose because they don't appear "strong." "Strong" does not just refer to defense, but holding "strong" convictions and acting on them: abortion, gay rights, the environment, privacy, etc. The Democrats appear weak because they don't act on any convictions that they might have. If they would simply act on their convictions, even if it was "at odds" with the majority, the majority would respect them and think that they are strong...this would translate into some new votes.
by rpwmed 2005-03-21 09:07AM | 0 recs
Re: I don't think the Rethugs
I don't agree.  Show me the basis for the fact they are 95% of the guarenteed gop party voters.  A majority I will concede, but 95% of the party no way.  If you can prove it please do.  

They helped Bush, no doubt...but if it wasn't for the defection of the elderly vote and shrinking our advantage in the latino vote, I think we would have won.  And Call me crazy, but the GOP doesn't carry the majority of Seniors in 2006.  

by yitbos96bb 2005-03-21 09:30AM | 0 recs
This is a brilliant move by the Republicans
The only people that will vote based on this single issue are with the Republicans. It doesn't matter if we have 99 percent of the US with us, they don't give a shit about this case. Come 2006 the only people who will be thinking about this are the "culture of life" loonies. Its the cheapest bone Bush can throw them. He is not going to do anything on gay marriage or abortion, so he has to give them something. What will this cost him? Absolutely nothing. Another brilliant move. We were outflanked again, because we have been focusing on the merits not the optics.
by TJonBergman 2005-03-21 02:13AM | 0 recs
Re: This is a brilliant move by the Republicans
LOL - and your suggested way to "outflank" them would have been to ?

Should the Dems have scurried to beat the rightwing house republicans to the punch, and tried to prostitute themselves first with this appalling behavior they have shown?

Nahhh.... I think we are doing just fine on this one. Let the Repubs show they think it's the place of politicians to plug feeding tubes into people.

The big job will be not to let the DeLay scandals slide, as this is all just a big smokescreen on his part.

by DDenver 2005-03-21 03:29AM | 0 recs
Re: This is a brilliant move by the Republicans
I am not exactly sure what we should have done, but I think all the talk about the Republicans "self-destructing" is way off. This will earn them points with the Religious Right and that will help 2006 turn out. It will cost them nothing. No one else well remember who Terry Schiavo is in 2006. I guess the only thing we can do is try to inflict some damage. Democratic leaders need to bring up Bush's Texas death bill--clearly the media will not bring it up on their own. They should bring up the Republican memo and talk about using suffering for political gain. I don't think standing by and hoping they implode will work given the fauning media coverage the Right inevitably gets.  
by TJonBergman 2005-03-21 05:16AM | 0 recs
Re: This is a brilliant move by the Republicans
Right, BUT the religious right is not 70 million strong.  The GOP loses the moderates and the libertarians to us or to the 3rd parties, it will hurt them.  You believe the same hype the GOP does...  That all their voters are Theocons.  They aren't.  
by yitbos96bb 2005-03-21 06:15AM | 0 recs
Re: This is a brilliant move by the Republicans
I don't think that they are all theocons. I think the theocons will vote based on this single event. Moderates (or anybody else) will not even remember this event much less think it outwieghs Social Security, Iraq, or anything else. So Republicans wont lose anybody. Therefore, it makes political sense to be on the side of the theocons. Its like abortion. Most Americans want abortion to be legal. However, those who are anti-choice are much more likely to vote based on that single issue than are people who are pro-choice. That is how abortion creates a vote gain for a Republicans, despite being in the minority. I am just pointing out that Republicans are not going to be hurt by this.
by TJonBergman 2005-03-21 08:03AM | 0 recs
Re: This is a brilliant move by the Republicans
Yes, but the Libertarian GOP will remember this.  If this causes then to leave the party, it may not equal a gain, but it is a loss for them.  And as close as things have gotten nationally, that may make a different.  I tend to think the people in Montanta, Wyoming etc are more libertarians than the Theocons of the south, Utah and Kansas.  Also, with all things being equal, many moderates may bolt based on this.  I know many moderates who are almost at their wits end.  This may be the straw.  Will playing up the issue convert people by the masses...no.  But the issue could cost the GOP some votes they take for granted (libertarian votes) and some swingers.    
by yitbos96bb 2005-03-21 08:43AM | 0 recs
Re: This is a brilliant move by the Republicans
I hope you are right!
by TJonBergman 2005-03-21 08:52AM | 0 recs
Re: This is a brilliant move by the Republicans
They could even go further than this.  They wouldn't think twice of running her picture in an ad against any number of Democrats.   I can hear the audio now:  "Senator ___ voted with the radical, pro-death left to KILL Terri!"

There is no low to which they will not stoop.

by bellarose 2005-03-21 06:23AM | 0 recs
Re: This is a brilliant move by the Republicans
You do realize how the religious right will react if Terri dies this Friday, don't you?

(Hint: What holy day is this Friday?)


by wayward 2005-03-21 04:13PM | 0 recs
Re: This is a brilliant move by the Republicans
This is a brilliant move by the Republicans, and while I support the legislation and hope that Terri's life be saved (the family claims they have video of Terri being responsive and what not), I feel the Republicans are doing this not for the right reasons but in order to have an issue on their side when they go galvanize the religious right to turn out to the polls in 2006. Mid term elections are all about turnout and this may be the GOP's strategy towards phase 1 of their goal. It's just sad to see everything is so damn politically motivated..
by falcon4e 2005-03-21 04:55AM | 0 recs
Re: This is a brilliant move by the Republicans
If God want's Terri to live, won't he keep her alive when they untube her.  I mean all I hear from Theocons (GREAT WORD!!!) is how faith trumps science.  Yet science is keeping her alive.  Maybe, just maybe, it is her time to go and this is more for the parents than her.  
by yitbos96bb 2005-03-21 06:18AM | 0 recs
I had someone come to my home
with a gun, a night ago about this.

I talked them down, saying - hey -
listen, this is a society of the

You know, this person, is dying.
Its ok to be upset about someone
dying, whether its an innocent Iraqi
child with his or her jaw blown off
by an american mortar, or a man
emprisoned by the patriot act, who
never caused any harm - or an unborn
child writhing in its first throes of
brain death from mercury pumped into
its system.

But nothing is happening here that doesn't
affect a corporate margin somewhere,
and it has to be a spectacle from
both sides to keep "the matrix" in
front of us.

So the dems can pretend, even though
they crossed the aisle - to be
all about libertarianism, and the GOP can
claim they're the party of GOD but
nobody here is doing anything that
isn't getting them face time.


Mother Teresa would have let the person
die, but in her arms. She would have
just held Terry, and been human to her.
Shiavo is a vegetable, that was god's
will - and miracles can occur.

To diminish the role of the father here
is to reject the vision of christ that
comes from simple compassion.

And hey, look, its no big deal if someone
picks up terry, and they go for a ride,
and she eats breakfast. I would think
thats cool.

But Mother Teresa would simply reject
the whole Idea that the spectacle defines
life in any way. She would uphold the
humanity of Terri, by letting her die,

That is what is going on in Calcutta right
now. That is the reason why she is a saint.
This society is still geared to mechanized

And we don't understand why our souls
keep dying...  Maybe the best answer right
now is to walk away. I don't claim to
speak for her life - I claim to speak
for myself only. I would love her, as
my own daughter, and if she should choose
to fade away I would respect that wish
with tears in my eye.

But I would not expect a new agenda or
some kind of wonderful thing to be
brought to 20 million TV views ---

ESPECIALLY when that could affect whether
or not the rules of the senate change
to make our country a fascist
dictatorship under the 'nuclear option'

This event smaks not of the church, but of
the corporations pushing the church around -
they want the fed. district judges in,
at any cost, so they can be immune
from litigatiion for stuff like
Mercury and Autism.


by turnerbroadcasting 2005-03-21 05:40AM | 0 recs
Re: I had someone come to my home
I don't agree with you often, but I must say, I like this post.  Nice job.
by yitbos96bb 2005-03-21 06:24AM | 0 recs
Re: Amazing
Yes, but since when should the right of the parents trump the right of the married spouse.  The parents may love, but they should have no say in this decision.  They lost those rights when Terri got married.  It sucks I agree but start blurring the line and this could cause problems.  Plus the Schindlers have dragged the case out.  I can understand why, but they are responsible for the Tax dollars wasted.  If they won all the cases and Michael kept appealing, I'd say he was responsible.  Maybe the law needs to be revisited.  At the very least I hope everyone on here makes a living will to express your wishes to pull the plug or not pull the plug.  
by yitbos96bb 2005-03-21 06:29AM | 0 recs
This woman can't feel pain, because she has no brain.  Her brain has collapsed and filled with spinal fluid years ago.  Only the brain stem remains.  She is a horrible example case make this arguement about.

As for the starve to death, right now, witholding food is legal, injecting a lethal injection isn't (except maybe in Oregon I think).  If you don't like that, change the law.

by Geotpf 2005-03-21 07:18AM | 0 recs
You're right, she isn't brain dead in the legal sense.  She is in a PVS, permanent vegatative state.  The American Academy of Neurology says NO ONE has ever come out of this.  All of her higher functions are gone because her head is filled with fluid.  

She has non-voluntary movement (controlled by the stem) which neurologists say fools people into false hope.

She has survived a while.  The odds of surviving past 15 years are 1 in 75000.  After 6 minutes without oxygen, the cerebral cortex is destroyed.  This is what keeps them from recovering.

Most neuorologists think that the PVS people feel no pain because the that part of the brain is destroyed.  

Terri's parents reject that she is in a PVS.  They say she makes movements and grips hands etc.  Yet, PVS people do this...they are involuntary movements.  It does make more sense of why the parents are fighting however.  


Ultimately, this is basically a case of the parents usurping the spouse's rights.  Yes I know the argument of Terri's rights.  Thing is, she can't make her feelings clear due to her condition.  She did not leave a will.  In this case, the husband should have the legal right to make the decision.  

by yitbos96bb 2005-03-21 09:23AM | 0 recs
Why are you all arguing about PVS vs. brain death?  You are the party that kills unborn children without a second thought.  What's the problem here for you?  
by Not A Democracy 2005-03-21 02:03PM | 0 recs
She's is not brain dead, she is PVS. She is non-responsive to stimuli and has no higher brain function.

In other words, the lights are still on, but no one's home, and no one's been home for 15 years.

Initially, I was quite sympathetic to Terri's parents in this mattter. Being allowed to pull the plug on a brain damaged based on hearsay alone sets a bad precident. However, after learning more of the facts of the case, it is apparent that Terri's parents are grasping at straws. The prevailing medical evidence shows she is PVS and is not coming back.

The facts show that Terri is in a persistant vegetative state. Under Florida law, Michael Schaivo has the right to discontinue treatment. This should be the end of the story and it is shameful that people are exploiting a family tragedy for political gain.

by wayward 2005-03-21 03:53PM | 0 recs
The Republicans are also re-branding themselves as the party that is willing to plunge the nation into deep debt.  For decades, the GOP has owned 2 pieces of valuable political capital; the notion that they are prudent fiscal managers, and the idea that they are the party of strong national defense.  With their reckless behavior in Iraq and the alienation of many of our long-time allies, the GOP is also in danger of losing that chunk of political capital as well.
by global yokel 2005-03-21 07:48AM | 0 recs
Permanent Issue
Do you know anyone who has a living will?  Anyone who wants to be sure that if they are totally paralyzed they won't be filled with tubes when there is no sane hope of recovery?  (Your mileage on this may vary, but you are trying to reach voters of a particular bent.) Congress has decided it can intervene in your process.  You may be lying in bed in hideous pain with no hope of any better future, and Congress may decide that yet more tubes shall be inserted to prolong and augment your suffering.

For more of the same, re-elect the Republican theocons, and watch them take your living will away.

That's a frame for the issue, because lots of people have living wills.

by phillies 2005-03-21 08:12AM | 0 recs
Re: Permanent Issue
I'd probably state if differently, but yes...good job.
by yitbos96bb 2005-03-21 08:33AM | 0 recs


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