Of Democrats, Elites, Bullies and Unregulated Trade

Over the past week there have been some rumblings on the `net about the merits of a possible intra-Democratic debate about trade policy. Actually, all of the rumblings seem to be coming from Democrats in favor of unregulated trade who for some reason seem itching to begin an intra-party fight on the issue. In particular, Kenneth Baer over at TNR, Brad Delong and Stephan Cohen over at the Atlantic, and Mathew Yglesias over at his blog, all seem to relish the idea of a major internal discussion over the issue.

Now, Being the sort of blogger that I am, my first reaction to seeing these gauntlets being thrown was to survey the polling data on the issue to see where popular opinion stands before the debate is set to begin. The most detailed study I could find on the subject from 2004 came from Pew in July. What I found was extraordinary, and bothers me a great deal. A plurality of people believe that trade agreements have hurt them economically, but at the same time a plurality of people also believe that these trade agreements are good for the country.

(source, PDF, p. 8).
    Effect on Nation	 Personal Finances
   Good    Bad	  DK	Good	Bad   Neither / DK 
    47	    34	  19	 33	 41	 26
WTF? My conclusion from this is that elite opinion leaders (and yes, I am looking at you TNR, DeLong and Yglesias) who, whether liberal or conservative, are almost unanimously in favor of trade agreements that place as few restrictions and regulations on international commerce as possible, have so thoroughly dominated the national discourse on trade that large segments of the population who have been personally hurt by such agreements have grown simultaneously convinced that their personal plight is for the good of the nation. In other words, the discussion is so thoroughly dominated by one side, that large segments of the population have actually come to trust the theory they receive from the media on trade as a better representation of reality than their own personal experience.

Does any of this sound like the growing ride of conservatism in this country, with its emphasis on theology and ideology rather than reality, to others reading this post? It does to me. Of course, it certainly would be more than a little presumptuous for someone such as myself, who has spent very little time studying economics, to call economic Ph.D. such as Brad DeLong or Duncan Black members of the faith-based community when it comes to international trade. However, I am going to do so anyway, since my hesitancy on this matter is emblematic of the larger problem I see revealed in these poll numbers.

I'll break this problem down in two parts. First, the strikingly high percentage of undecideds in the Pew survey on these questions in demonstrative of how a large segment of the country does not feel qualified to take a position on international trade. Second, gap between those who believe they have been hurt by trade and those who believe it is a good thing shows that there is an equally large segment of the population that is willing to shirk their opinions in favor of those who are deemed "experts" on the issue. Taken together, these two problems indicate that discussion of the issue has become so thoroughly dominated by "experts" who, when selected and presented by the MSM, are almost universally in favor of unregulated trade, that the will of the general populace to oppose a policy they feel harmed by has been broken.

Frankly, this stinks, and reminds me of the extreme degree to which conservative positions have regularly bullied liberal ones out of mainstream discourse. It reminds me of the run-up to war, of welfare reform, of the last two months of the Dean campaign ("electability") and of the canonization of the "new economy" in the 1990's. It reminds me of the ideological disparities to be found on Sunday morning talk shows, cable news panels, and think tank quotations in the media. It reminds me of why I was so angry with the leadership of the Democratic Party for most of the last decade, because I felt they were complicit with, and even active participants in, many of these discursive muggings. How can a plurality of the country believe it has been hurt by unregulated trade, but simultaneously believe that unregulated trade is good for the country as a whole? I can only conclude it is because we have been bullied into believing that corporate interests, rather than the interests of the people, are best for the country.

So there, that's my opening salvo in the intra-party discussion on trade. I personally, and I emphasize personally, because I do not know what Jerome thinks about this issue, welcome this discussion, because I believe that if those of us opposed to unregulated trade are finally given an equal voice and an actual "debate" ensues, our side will win the popular battle on this issue, big time. Bring it on.

Tags: Labor (all tags)

Comments

43 Comments

Uh, Why now?
Just what isn't relevant right now, an intra-party dispute on trade.  How is that relevant, considering that we don't control a single organ of the federal government.  Politics isn't about writing White Papers.  
by Alan S 2005-02-15 06:49AM | 0 recs
Freemarketeers Exit Stage Right....
I'm with you on this all the way Chris.

First of all, the free market ideology that fuels all of the free trade agreements is rubish (IMHO).  Ask a free market ideolauge what assumptions that they have to make in order for their "scientific" models to work. It makes for some great comedy. One quick example: neoclassical economics relies heavily on the assumption that people are basically rational decision makers who weigh their options and make the most rational decision (as opposed to using some heuristic to make the decision and then rationalize it afterwords- a closer approximation to how we make decisions), and absurd idea that was discredited by psychologists and cognitive scientists long ago, and by common sense long before that (I mean- why do we go to wars?).

Then there is the idea of a "natural level of unemployment", which could be 5% today and 10% tomorrow. True free marketers would love nothign more than to let unemployed people starve if they aren't willing to work for substandard wages.

The other major idea within the theories that I have a major problem with (actually I have  aproblem with the entire theory, since it is built on such a shitty foundation), and the one that is most relevant to this topic, is the idea that economies, when left to their own devices, always move towards equilibrium. Thus we are told that if we open up our economies, that in the long run we will all benefit. But as Keynes noted- in the long rn we're all dead, and to use the working class of this and every country in some sick experiment is, in my eyes, a criminal neglect on the part of our government.

We are not heading towards equilibrium- or paradise or whatever- where every worker in the world benefits (I challenge anyone out there to show me real life examples of this over time). Rather we are now cauhgt in a race to the bottom, where the only winenrs are large multi-national corporations, and where the workers of every country lose out. And before one of you dreamers comes back at me with the standard "well don't you think that those third world workers are better off" let me plainly state- NO!. Even in the "developing world" workers are forced to compete with other workers in other countries, and the workers who will work for less, with less safety provissions, and less rules for allowing the person to live a real life, will win. And who loses in this race to the bottom? The working class of every nation.

We need to smack the living daylights out of the lefty free marketers who's dreams of economic utopia are leading to the destruction of the American Middle Class, and scream "WAKE THE FUCK UP!" The middle class IS the democratic party, and if you keep blowign smoke up our asses while our jobs are sent over seas, we'll never vote for you again.

by Alex Urevick 2005-02-15 07:10AM | 0 recs
Re: Freemarketeers Exit Stage Right....
Hey Alex,

Go ask one of those migrant workers in China whether they'd rather choose to work with less safety provisions, rules for living a real life, etc. at a factory or life back on the farm under Communism.

Anyway, I agree that lassez-faire policies are destroying the middle-class.  However, free trade does produce benefits (along with having a cost).

The key is to have policies that maximizes the positives of a market economy while minimizing the pain, dislocation, and worries of free trade.

I'm sure it would have sucked to be one of the working hoi polloi during the early Industrial Age in the US or Britain, but I doubt you're regretting that the Industrial Age ever occurred and yearn to live as a peasnat in a feudal society.

by rtung 2005-02-15 08:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Freemarketeers Exit Stage Right....
Right- it benefits the rich and multinationals at the expense of the working class. I'll point you to my other comment as to the standard question you pose about Chinese workers (yawn).

I'm sure it would have sucked to be one of the working hoi polloi during the early Industrial Age in the US or Britain, but I doubt you're regretting that the Industrial Age ever occurred and yearn to live as a peasnat in a feudal society

Huh? what are you talking about? What the heck does this have to do with freemarket ideolauges and trade policies? Do you think America was, or was not, an isolationist economy during this time?

The key is to have policies that maximizes the positives of a market economy while minimizing the pain, dislocation, and worries of free trade.

The key is to put free market economics where it deserves to be- in the dustbin of history along with all the other nutso utopian ideals that people have harbored over the years. We need practical solutions to the problems of Working Class America, not extremely well thought out, but fundementally wrong, utopian economics theories.

by Alex Urevick 2005-02-15 08:49AM | 0 recs
Re: Freemarketeers Exit Stage Right....
Right- it benefits the rich and multinationals at the expense of the working class. I'll point you to my other comment as to the standard question you pose about Chinese workers (yawn). Point it out (or just copy and paste). Huh? what are you talking about? What the heck does this have to do with freemarket ideolauges and trade policies? Do you think America was, or was not, an isolationist economy during this time? It was definitely freemarket in a lot of respects (for instance, immigration-wise and capital-flow-wise). It certainly could not be considered isolationist despite the tariffs.
by rtung 2005-02-15 10:07AM | 0 recs
Re: Freemarketeers Exit Stage Right....
Sorry- my signals got crossed, it was within the comment you replied to. Basically my point is that the freemarket leads to a race to the bottom, and not a "raising of all ships" as the ideolauges would have us believe.

It certainly could not be considered isolationist despite the tariffs.

American industries were certainly well protected from foreign competition through tariffs and quotas. Please give me an example of an American industry, still in its infancy, that competed within America with foreign companies.  

by Alex Urevick 2005-02-15 10:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Freemarketeers Exit Stage Right....
Yes, but at the bottom, the boats are raised.  Observe China for a while.  Non-skilled wages there increased 10% the past year.  Once upon a time, Taiwan, HK, and S. Korea were making as much per capita as mainland Chinese do now.  Now their per capita GDP is half to a third of the US's.  20 years ago, Shanghainese made as much per capita as the poorest third-world countries.  Now they're already halfway to Taiwan's level.
by rtung 2005-02-15 01:03PM | 0 recs
Re: Freemarketeers Exit Stage Right....
Don't confuse capitalism itself with the freemarket ideology which is looking at capitalism. There are plenty of other theories out there that better explain capitalism and work better when put into action.

Also- you really must be confused since you include China in this conversation. China is defenitely not a free market.

And, those Asian tigers sure paid a price when they finally handed over control of their economies to the market. Which economy survived that storm not only unscathed, but arguablly in a much stronger position? China. And they did this how? By not allowing the free trade of their currency.

Thanks for helping to prove my point...

by Alex Urevick 2005-02-15 01:20PM | 0 recs
Re: Freemarketeers Exit Stage Right....

You must never have been to China or know much about it if you think that China is "definitely not a free market".  They do still have strict capital controls, but in some respects, their markets are more free than here in the US.

Anyway, I don't think capital controls are a bad thing, either.

by rtung 2005-02-16 01:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Freemarketeers Exit Stage Right....
How much did you pay for that stuff you're smoking? Next time try google, it can be remarkably useful when you're trying to dispute someone's claims.

Here's CATO going after China for its controls of its capital market.

http://www.cato.org/dailys/02-24-04.html

Not that China has opened up somewhat (espescially in the last year) but to call it an example of a free market economy is laughable...

And the argument had nothing to do with captial controls being a good thing, which I agree with. I thought that it would be made obvious by saying that China weathered the Asian Financial Crash because it controled its flows of capital.

by Alex Urevick 2005-02-17 09:54AM | 0 recs
Re: Freemarketeers Exit Stage Right....
That's not the issue. The issue today is how "free markets" are defined for starters. Do we have free agricultural trade with foreign sugar growers? Why is the world price for sugar $10/lb. and $20/lb. in the U.S.?

I acutally approve of Bush's cut in agricultural subsidies, but they will never fly. Until we dramatically reduce our agricultural subsidies, free trade is a mythical discussion. Free trade is better described as quotas and sanctions that the WTO and IMF impose on third world countries to maintain our trade advantage and benefit multi-national global corporations.

Free market utopians usually defend a mythical free market that ignores the reality of international negotiated trade agreements that are neither free nor fair, and in most cases economically oppressive for third world and developing countries.

by Gary Boatwright 2005-02-15 09:01AM | 0 recs
Re: Freemarketeers Exit Stage Right....
True enough.  You could make the case that liberals could and should press for more free-market policies in some areas (and less in others).  Conservatives have managed to anoint themselves free-marketeers even though they only support those free-market policies that favor the rich (and don't support those that hurt them).
by rtung 2005-02-15 10:10AM | 0 recs
Re: Freemarketeers Exit Stage Right....
Somethings wrong with your numbers. I can walk into Jewel and buy a 4 pound bag of Domino sugar for $2.35, not $80.00  Store label is even cheaper.

Incidently, this puts the lie to candy maker's claim that candy is $17.00 a pound because of sugar prices. If sugar was free it would still be over $16.00

Maybe the prices you quote are per hundredweight or even per ton wholesale.

by antiHyde 2005-02-15 03:34PM | 0 recs
You misunderstand "Equilibrium"
Its a value neutral concept. It simply means "eventually everything will cancel out".

So a race to the bottom can be, in and of itself equilibrium. You have person X making $100 doing a job. Person Y offers to do it for $1. Eventually, "in the long run", you will have X and Y making $50...equilibrium (waaaaay oversimplified, but not off point).

I'm not defending Faith Based Economics (I'm a Grad School trained Economist who realized what a joke much of the field has become)...just explaining the logical fallacy. Its a common one, and very similar to the sci-fi assumption that Evolution always means greater complexity and intelligence. In fact, its just a study of pghysical adaptions to environmental change, and one can just as easily evolve to lower intelligence or more simplistic structure if the environmental consitions are right.

by ElitistJohn 2005-02-15 11:20AM | 0 recs
Re: You misunderstand "Equilibrium"
I don't think I misunderstand equilibrium (though I may), but I can see how it was incorrect to use it here. Soros discredits that bogus theory better than I could ever hope to, and though he's looking at the currency market and not the job market I think you could make the same case there. If the job market moves towards equilibrium, than how do you explain the great depression? I guess my main argument is that the term seems to evoke a sense of a natural state of things. That's defenitely the point when the dilettants talk about a "natural rate of unemployment", a rate which changes whenever it fits a particular theory.

BTW- my condolances on your degree. It seems you are recovering nicely though. ;-)

by Alex Urevick 2005-02-15 11:35AM | 0 recs
Re: Freemarketeers Exit Stage Right....
Modern Systems Theory belies the idea that all systems go to equilibrium. Many, if not most, systems are chaotic and move AWAY from equilibrium.

Feedback controls are required on most systems to make them stable.

by antiHyde 2005-02-15 03:42PM | 0 recs
Re: Freemarketeers Exit Stage Right....
That's exactly my point.
by Alex Urevick 2005-02-17 09:55AM | 0 recs
and...
Of course, it certainly would be more than a little presumptuous for someone such as myself, who has spent very little time studying economics, to call economic Ph.D. such as Brad DeLong or Duncan Black members of the faith-based community when it comes to international trade. However, I am going to do so anyway, since my hesitancy on this matter is emblematic of the larger problem I see revealed in these poll numbers.

the problem is one of endoctrination. Can you find me 2 economics department in this country that aren't dominated by the Neoclassicists and their wacky ass fantasies? I doubt it. I doubt that most Econ departments at the major universities have more than one person on their Econ. staff that doesn't belong to their cult.

Economists are really smart- but boy are they out of touch with reality.

by Alex Urevick 2005-02-15 07:13AM | 0 recs
Your instincts are right Chris
I got into an argument with Armando on "free trade" last year over this very issue. This is a diary I put together to prove that the Free Trade maestro himself, Paul Samuelson, has recanted his unqualified support for free trade: Free Trade or Fair Trade.

I think Greider had an article along the same lines in The Nation recently. I'll see if I can find it. One of Samuelson's students took issue with Greider in a LTE and Greider pointed out that he was exactly the audience that Samuelson had referred to as over enthusiastic about the benefits of free trade and accused of ignoring the economic and human costs of "free trade".

by Gary Boatwright 2005-02-15 07:45AM | 0 recs
Re: Your instincts are right Chris
Here's a Greider article, Defunct Economists that covers this issue. There are probably more. I have absolutely no idea why liberals would want to get on a free trade jag at this time. Perhaps they want to pull Bush's fat out of the fire.
by Gary Boatwright 2005-02-15 07:57AM | 0 recs
Re: Your instincts are right Chris
Money Quote from Greider article:

The mindless conformity of elite opinion was long ago observed in John Maynard Keynes's famous dictum: "Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist."

by Gary Boatwright 2005-02-15 07:58AM | 0 recs
Your instincts are right Chris
I too am with you Chris.  This one area of political discussion is one that hamstrings both parties.  That is there is a large contingent in both our Party and the Republicans (Buchanan wing) that favor regulation particularly when it comes to trade.  This is a winning issue for Democrats because our rank and file will probably fall in line, and we can get otherwise Republican voters into our camp.  We'll never get them with values and all that other mush, but this is an issue they can rally around particularly if times get rough.
by fred 2005-02-15 08:21AM | 0 recs
Oops, I'm sorry
I forgot to mention that it is also the right policy besides being politically advantageous.
by fred 2005-02-15 08:22AM | 0 recs
Re: Oops, I'm sorry
I am writing to say I agree with you Fred.

I have written mant times about this topic, and the negative effects not only on people as individuals and families, but also (deleterious effects upon) the Democratic Party - alienating one of its most important set of constituencies, and harming the country, causing both the trade and budget deficits to mushroom.

For my efforts, I have mostly received a lot of scorn and criticism from people who seem to be personally comfortable in their own economic situation at the moment, people who buy into the theory about free trade that has been provided for them from both sides of the political aisle, and from mainstream academia, and people who in my view ARE BLIND to the real effects so called "free trade" has actually had upon people and the nation.

"Free trade" is a misnomer, likely a deliberate and calculated one like Bush's "Clear Skies" environmental program. It does the opposite in practical effect of what the name would indicate.

Specifically, there are tremendous costs to what passes for "free trade" in practice. Those costs are "externalized" from the companies who benefit; but those costs do not disappear, no free lunch for society as a whole or the economy as a two sided balanced equation. Those costs have to be accounted for and the companies who benefit from "free trade" do not pay them, we as a society do pay them, in our personal lives and as tax paying citizens.

And the devastation has been horrific. Again, I repeat myself but take a look at Chris Hume's Red State Road Trip;

http://www.truthout.org/multimedia.htm

And note that the people in this exploration do not know what has hit them, the devastation has been like a force of nature and they have no means to cope.

These people do not think the policy is bad preceisely becasue both democrats and republicans in the main support the policy, and discussions in the corporate media always seem to result in support for so called "free trade" as well. I know that these policies can be changed and the effects can be reversed, but for example what did Kerry say in the last election about them?

Kerry on "free trade": I am not going to pander to you, there is not much we can do about this."

[My response to Kerry; your entirely wrong about that.]

Democrats specifically as a party have been very big losers on this policy. The temporary prosperity of the Clinton years masked the true effect (internet bubble hid the true condition of ballooning defecits) and with Bush's policies, as we all know the deficits large as they are now will just explode again, after Bush's tenure.

These policies are unsustainable for the national economy, and I believe that support for these policies within the Democratic Party will in fact doom the democratic party to its ultimate and complete demise. I am an certain there is no exageration in this claim.

by leschwartz 2005-02-15 09:47AM | 0 recs
Why -free trade- policy will doom the DEMS
I need to say why this policy stance (nothing can be done about "free trade") dooms the Democratic Party.

Its simply that the nation only needs one Republican Party and we already have one. Republican are well situated historically to represent the interest of big business at the expense of the working and middle class. When the Democrats try to duplicate this role of its policital and structural opponent, it is superflous.

As Dean says; "In a choice between GOP-lie and real GOP, the GOP wins every time."

by leschwartz 2005-02-15 09:55AM | 0 recs
Alterman, Latin America Example
Great post.  "What Liberal Media" has great sections on this subject.  Many, many liberal and wealthy pundits are blind supporters of all free-trade policy (and believers in the invisible hand). Also relates to the paucity of coverage of labor issues.  

As a former true believer in the power of markets (and as someone who worked on promoting their adoption in Latin America), I think Latin America ia  a great negative example of the benefits and impacts of free trade and free markets.  Argentina is a prime example -- GDP and standard of living has declined post free trade and privatization.  

Now, maquiladora's in Mexico are suffering a similar fate -- they can't compete with China and so that Textile work and other piece work is leaving.  They are hopeful to get more "high end" work in Mexico but the net effect is negative.  

So, not only has free trade not borne the benefits for the US economy that folks had hoped, it is not bringing prosperity and happiness to many development countries.  The prime beneficieiaries of free trade are the shareholder's of Wal Mart.

Yes, it is true that consumer can get a nice $15 shirt from the GAP and a $100 DVD player from Wal Mart but it would be interesting to see what the trade off was in terms of net gain (after you factor in loss of jobs, civic centers, etc).

I also wonder what is the US's comparative advantage going forward?  Now that financial analysis, programming and almost everyone else are done more cheaply abroad, what's left?  Only I can come up with are marketing and entertainment.  How sustainable is that advantage?

by lojo 2005-02-15 10:13AM | 0 recs
Free or not the Key is competition.
Competetion is the key to efficiency.

But we need competition in ALL sectors.  Its the lack of competition in the CAPITALIST catagory that has hurt the poor.  The relative lack of competition in the EDUCATED catagory that has hurt the poor.

To help the poor we need to encourage many people to compete with the rich by buying stock, buying realestate, buying bonds, etc.  And becoming educated.

And in regards to foreign workers we need to strengthen foreign LABOR policies to protect them.  This in turn will protect us.

by donkeykong 2005-02-15 11:09AM | 0 recs
Re: Free or not the Key is competition.
Your obviously a republican.

Your spouting well disproven right wing theories about how economies work and you grossly lack information and an open mind as well.

You seem to be unaware of the FACT that millions of unemployed people in the US with great educations and decades of excellent work experience remain unemployed, and are no longer counted in government statistics.

These people remain unemployed becuase their "safe high tech" engineering jobs have been exported to low wage nations were those people who now have those jobs are not better educated, they just live in a society where wages are lower because unlike our society where the several hundred years of infrastrusture costs (post industrial society) are not embedded into the basic wage rates and cost of living as they are in the US.

Competition is not the be-all end-all and only value in any economy. Its one of several social - economic goals every society must balance to remain healthy.

Your view would lead to the constantly degenerating situation we have now, a constant spiral down towards a universally lower standard of living in all nations and society stratified to greater extremes than we can even imagine, not a good thing.

China and India could absorb every exportable US and European job and still have tens of surplus millions unemployed, without moving their own societies anywhere but marginally toward properity. That is where this bogus concept of "free trade" is leading us.

by leschwartz 2005-02-15 11:32AM | 0 recs
Re: Free or not the Key is competition.
Yet free trade has had it's success stories, the biggest one being the Common Market, now the European Union. Spain, Portugal, and Ireland have gone from being terribly poor to being relatively prosperous. Another would be the free trade agreements between the U.S. and Canada.
by wayward 2005-02-15 01:31PM | 0 recs
Re: Free or not the Key is competition.
Do you think world wide the standard of living is going down?

I think it is going up.

by donkeykong 2005-02-15 03:02PM | 0 recs
Re: Free or not the Key is competition.
Did I miss something here?

To help the poor we need to encourage many people to compete with the rich by buying stock, buying realestate, buying bonds, etc.  And becoming educated.

Help the poor by encouraging them to buy stocks?

To buy Real Estate?

Bonds?

Compete with the rich?

The poor?

With what money?

I will agree we should help everyone get educated but I really wonder if you have a grasp of what 'poor' even means.

The poor just need to compete harder don't they?

by Curt Matlock 2005-02-15 10:03PM | 0 recs
Free Trade is BAD
It lifts all boats eventually, but some boats have so far to rise that the water they suck, drags those high tide boats way on down.

We are now dominated by global wage arbitrage. Even if your not outsourced, you are still competing with a lower paid foreigner.

To me the solution is simply and effective, and demonsteably so.

Minimum contant laws for strategic industries. It has not only saved the auto sector from being devasted like so many other manufacturing industries, it has even attracted foreign companies here to compete.

Minimum contant DOES NOT require tarriffs, it is fair to everyone who wants to sell to the US consumer, and it doesnt prevent ANY company from having off shore operations to serve other markets.

So long as the system allows foreign companies equal and fair "rights" to have an operation in the US, and other countries do the same, then the only people you are competing with are people in your own country, using equal laws, equal conditions, a true level playing field.

It shuold not be the priority of the US government to enhance the conditions of those living outside the US, that is a secondary concern, the primary concern should be for the welfare of US citizens.

This race to the lowest common denominator has to stop, we are never going to convince China and the like to adopt fair trade practices, not in the time frame required to rescue the US economy, and we should cease trying and force change ourselves, change we can control. Minimum content laws.

by Pounder 2005-02-15 01:38PM | 0 recs
Re: Free Trade is BAD
Those Japanese who were going to take our jobs in the 80s...

Well I like the Honda Civic I drive, the Cheap TV, the option to buy a cheap Sony Play Station.  And you know what...

The Japenese Earn as much as we do now.  And my car, TV, and other electronics are still cheaper because they are there.

China will be the same way in 30 years.

Free Trade is Good.  Now having said that I am not against getting there slowly like Dean proposes by forcing the Chinese to pay there workers more and give them health care etc.

by donkeykong 2005-02-15 03:06PM | 0 recs
Re: Free Trade is BAD
Japan has a population half that of the USA. China is four times bigger than the USA. It makes a difference. Japan could never absorb all our jobs, China can, even without India (likewise four times bigger) taking any. And ask any IT person about where IT jobs have gone in the last 4 years.
by antiHyde 2005-02-15 03:39PM | 0 recs
Re: Free Trade is BAD
Ok ... speaking as an IT person, lots of tech jobs have gone to India. Lots. More than have been replaced. Jobs are down and so are salaries.
by Curt Matlock 2005-02-15 04:01PM | 0 recs
Re: Free Trade is BAD
Jobs and Salaries are up in India.

Are we for the poor ONLY in America?

It is OK when we are the RICH but not when we are the POOR?

by donkeykong 2005-02-15 08:55PM | 0 recs
Re: Free Trade is BAD
Would you have us include in the Democratic platform that U.S. tech workers should sacrifice in order that the standard of living in India be raised?

Or would you ignore the issue and allow things to stand as they are?

What would you put in the platform about H1-B Visas and other entry points for Indian and Chinese workers to come to the U.S. to work for U.S. corporations, thereby displacing local U.S. tech workers and helping depress tech salaries?

How many U.S. tech jobs would you have us sacrifice to raise the standard of living in India? What number would you aim for?

20,000 workers?

100,000 workers?

by Curt Matlock 2005-02-15 09:48PM | 0 recs
Re: Free Trade is BAD
Our basic economic platform is that redistribution of wealth is a good thing within USA.

why is it different OUTSIDE?

If redistribution within is good then so is redistribution outside.

by donkeykong 2005-02-16 07:26AM | 0 recs
Re: Free Trade is BAD
I fully support India's efforts to become a First World country. Their high-tech strategy shows signs of helping them make real progress.

Good for them.

But they don't vote in our elections. Do you support American tech workers or not? If you support American tech workers losing their jobs then what plans do you have to help them?

Education? That was President Bush's plan. He thinks that a 40 year old programmer with a college degree and 3 kids needs education after he loses his job to an H1-B holder or an offshoring firm.

Is that what you are arguing for? To me, it sounds like you have in mind a principle, "Free Trade", but no real conception of the Americans it will affect. Fine, back your principle, but learn some empathy for the disruptions your principle will cause your fellow Americans.

by Curt Matlock 2005-02-16 07:50AM | 0 recs
Re: Free Trade is BAD
I agree that in theory, free trade is a good thing for everyone over the long run, but in practice, free trade can absolutely devastate a segment of the US population--a certain geographic area or socio-economic spectrum--to such an extent that they may never recover (and the negative externalities that these poor blighted people generate--like crime--may make free trade an overall loser).
by rtung 2005-02-16 01:10PM | 0 recs
Re: Free Trade is BAD
India and China.

Are parasites. Both countires have HUGE internal markets, yet before developing those ot increase the standards of their own people, they choose ot suck the blood from us first. THAT is the problem.

Both these countires have enough resources and a large enough domestic market to be able to raise the standard for themselves. So no, we should not subsidize their workers with ours, we should be pushing them to develop their own markets.

Having minimum contant laws would achieve this.

by Pounder 2005-02-17 06:56AM | 0 recs
Missed Opportunity
I think we missed a big opportunity by not going after the trade/outsourcing issue in the campaign last fall.

Kos did too:

The big issues
by kos
Sat Oct 16th, 2004 at 13:24:05 EST

Despite the dearth of "issues" as an issue this election, there are a handful that will have a huge effect on the outcome of the elections, whether discussed or not. . . .

Outsourcing. I've seen the issue move numbers 10-20 points in private polling for several House races, and by smaller but significant margins in national polling. It's electoral gold, and has helped Democrats like SC's Inez Tenenbaum remain competitive in hostile Red territory. . . .

There are other issues, sure. But these . . . give concrete angles to people's worries about . . . the economy . . . As such, they can have far more impact than abstract dicussions of "payroll survey job growth", or 10-page "health plans".

Being against unregulated trade does not mean being against more trade. It is totally consistent to be in favor of trade expansion, while insisting that trade expansion benefit everyone. Unregulated "free" trade does not do that.

Nathan Newman made this point well:

. . . The whole "protectionist" label misses the point, since labor folks are often in favor of trade, since it breeds jobs. . . .

While some labor-types are straight up protectionists, the official labor position is that trade is fine as long as all countries are required to respect basic labor rights, such as the right to free speech in the workplace and the right to bargain collectively. That way, it's the workers in each country deciding the appropriate trade-off between wages and jobs-- not each government imposing it as authoritarian policy. And the advantage of that is if jobs go overseas, it's far more likely to lead to better paying jobs there, which in turn increases the demand for US goods. So us "fair traders" are all in favor of lots of trade-- we just want the benefits to go first, last and foremost to workers both in the US and in the developing world.

The key to a progressive policy on trade is a commitment to full employment, of the kind we had during the second Clinton administration (4% unemployment rate or lower).

That would mean macroeconomic policies that keep interest rates low, and a federal commitment to spend enough on job-creating programs to bring down the unemployment rate to 4%.

This should be coordinated with a broad public investment program; maybe we should also think about:

all of which could be part of a full-employment program.

Then we bring in labor market policies to retrain and relocate workers so they can take advantage of these new job opportunities, and community development programs to direct job creation to regions hit hard by the outsourcing of jobs. This could be realized through some of the policies outlined above.

And we haven't even talked about raising tariffs or other trade barriers yet, although we should reserve the right to do so (temporarily) if they are needed to ease adjustments out of declining industries, or to support infant industries, or to help us solve our trade deficit problem.

by tgeraghty 2005-02-15 09:14PM | 0 recs
Re: Missed Opportunity
Also, a new set of rules for the global economy, such as:
  • An international commitment to the right to join a labor union;

  • A global minimum wage, and maybe (if we're really ambitious);

  • A global central bank to stabilize exchange rates and promote global growth instead of austerity

would be needed to truly enshrine a "fair trade" regime.
by tgeraghty 2005-02-15 09:57PM | 0 recs

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